New rules and OVAS objectives

[Snowgrrl83]

Dear OVAS board members (and others who may be interested in putting their intelligent 2 cents in),

I've noticed that recently a change in the Forum Rules has taken place.  There is simply one rule that I do not understand. 

I'm currently wondering why you need to be an OVAS member in order to post in the classifieds section. 
As I've stated in a previous discussion, I believe that the classifieds are important in order to preserve or "save" certain critters, especially those of the rare variety from being thrown out by aquarists that are getting out of the hobby, accidentally bought a individual of a species that would outgrow their tank, or that simply want to "renovate" their tank inhabitants, etc.

In Ottawa, currently, there are multiple animal shelters for unwanted pets, although I'm unaware of any that take in aquatic pets.  In the saltwater side of the hobby, the amount of fish species that can be bred in captivity are limited, therefore, most fish are wild-caught.  Many hobbyists here have traded wild-caught specimens and the specimen in question got transferred multiple times from one hobbyists to another due to the classifieds section and its easy accessibility.  This may stop occurring if fees are added.  Myself, I must admit that nearly 80% of the inhabitants of my nano-tank are from trades or buys coming from the classifieds section here. 

As you may know, humans can't keep on consuming the way that we currently do.  Usually, we start teaching in grade school about the concepts of Reduce, reuse and recycle.  There are currently incredible environmental catastrophies and degradation of our natural world occurring, from oil spills that may reach the Florida keys, to oil tankers hitting the Great Barrier Reef, pollution in lake Tang and Victoria and the over harvesting of all sorts of species, pesticide use, bioaccumulation of chemical products, sewage problems causing hormonal unbalances amongst breeding fish, destruction of mangrove habitats for aquaculture of jumbo cocktail shrimp, etc. 

I'm surprised that OVAS wouldn't keep on offering this service that was originally free to anyone in order to prevent the loss of these individuals of all sorts of species.  Its important for members to reduce fish loss and wild-caught specimens, reuse unwanted pets and trade their coral/fish/equipment.  I'm really confused since one of the objectives of OVAS is to 4. to work toward the conservation of endangered species.  Some pets currently traded in this hobby are considered Endangered, Threatened or of Special Concern (or other classifications to identify legally protected species) by CITES, WAPRIITA, SARA and/or COSEWIC (e.g. all Hippocampus species are listed under WAPPRITTA and CITES).  I also think that in order to prevent further wild-caught specimens to find themselves perish from being unwanted, we should be doing what we can locally.  Every year in Canada, we add at least 20 species to the species at risk list (and I'm not mentioning the species that get listed internationally!), lets not contribute to the abundance loss that some species are currently experiencing. As small as a gesture it may be, we can make a difference locally.  Please remember that biodiversity conservation is not worth any amount of money, once a species is lost, it is lost forever.  No amount of money can bring it back.

Before making any further complaints, I wanted to see whether this rule was actually going to be put into place.  I was sincerely disappointed today when I noticed that non-members were no longer allowed to post in the Classifieds section.  I'm not a member, but that is because I'm rarely available on the 4th Monday of every month.  The forum is still quite useful to me to find out about local stores, classifieds, and current trends in fish-keeping technology.

I hope that you take my post into consideration.  I would simply like an explanation for this modification to the forums considering the reason stated above which currently goes against one of OVAS' primary objectives.  Please feel free to delete my post if you'd like, but I believe that other members and forum-users would benefit from an explanation. 

Sincerely,

Marie-France
Conservation Biologist

[holachicka]

What great points you bring up, very well said! Maybe I am the only one but, as a member myself, I have no issue with non-members posting in the classifieds.

Jessie

[kerisb]

Very well said,   I am not a member also, but did make very good use of the classifieds and scanned them on an almost daily basis.    Have been looking for other avenues for aquatic classifieds..........can see kijjiji becoming ever more popular.

Seems such a waste..........a great forum like this being limited somewhat by only allowing members.  There are usually good reasons for everything done, just hope there was a very good reason for this decision.    As from what I have learnt is it is the beginner or new to aquatics that usually get sucked into buying alot of stuff to find out they don't like the hobby and want to get out of it...............hence being told to  come to this forum to sell their stuff.

I know for a fact that Big Al's refers this site to people looking to get rid of fish.

[robt18]

I think the reasoning behind it is because the website is an extention of the club, they are using this to increase membership. Kijiji and usedottawa are also available to post free classified ads for fish, and many of the ads on there are also on ovas, so clearly many OVASers use the other sites as well.

Essentially OVAS is giving you the privilege or selling your items through the club/site as a benefit of your membership with the club. Non-members can still browse the classifieds and purchase fish and items from OVASers.

[buzzard]

Couldn't agree with you more Marie.
2 thunbs up.
I am not a member either, I work 6 to 7 days a week, owning my own buisness.
I too can not attend every 4th monday of the month or most any other day of the month.
Conservation IS the name of the game and I can't believe that a few bad apples could spoil a good thing for everybody.
I REALY can't believe that the OVAS would let these people spoil it for EVERYONE.
I have bought and sold A LOT from people advertising on this site mainly because I believe in conservation and recycling.
Have you noticed that the last ad posted was on June 5th???, It is now June 7th, I have NEVER seen that before,
OH WELL, I guess you'll find another aquarium on the sidewalk or another fish in the sewer.
4. to work toward the conservation of endangered species.
I believe OVAS has just taken a step backwards instead of looking to the future.
Yes, Kijiji and usedottawa are looking good right now for buying and selling but I like the information from trusted people on THIS site.
I personally will be LOOKING for another site that is looking at the future and actually knows how to handle a few bad apples without punishing the rest of us.
Again I will give 2 thumbs up to you Marie and I hope we can all find a NEW site that we can ALL SHARE our passion for these Animals.

[fischkopp]

The intention behind limiting the classifieds is the change the appearance for this website, which is the online extension of OVAS. Lately, ovas.ca has become known as "the place where you can get cheap fish stuff". We want to get away from that image and OVAS to be know for what it is. The most recent posts in the past reflected exactly that the c/f made probably 75% of all the traffic. Many people that were using the c/f didn't even know that OVAS is a local aquarium club (if you know that, great!). That doesn't sound like a big problem at first, more people is always great. Well, its not. The classifieds have always been a place where some take advantage over others. Many people have their own experiences with that, and many of these turned their back on OVAS completely because of that. Making the c/f a privilege for members only is an attempt to limit this. We also do not want that the club degrades to an aquatic Used Ottawa, simply because that is not our main objective.

I do not see how limiting the classifieds conflicts with the presentation and conversation. Any ads of this kind have been very, very rare. Be aware that we can be contacted and willing to help out if anybody is in an situation in which they cannot take care of their fish anymore. That is what OVAS is about: an aquatic community that is there for each other.

[Snowgrrl83]

I'm not sure that you understand the impacts of wild-caught specimens, including the extraction of live rock from the ocean. I think it is also ignorant to think that over-harvesting does not lead to species becoming threatened or endangered.  Just because the trade of some species is still legal, or just because it hasn't yet been put on a species at risk priority list, doesn't mean that its not on its way to extinction or hasn't suffered severe declines!  Just look at our local Spotted Turtle considered Endangered in Ontario and Canada, this species has been nearly picked to extinction due to the pet trade industry.

I honestly don't see how the classifieds has ever been a place where some take "advantage" over others. 

Call me rude, but this is the way that I see it:

The only people that are not getting any benefits from the classifieds section of the forum are the sponsors, people running businesses.  In fact, they may be losing some business over this.  The only thing that OVAS might lose, is a few potential sponsors and an opportunity to get more membership sign-ups (not more attendance to the monthly meetings).  More membership sign ups and more support from businesses/sponsors means increased funding for OVAS... I taught this was a "non-profit" type of club?! 

I also don't think that it is rare to see full set ups and individual species being sold in the Classifieds because someone is moving homes, getting out of the hobby, etc....  Just think of the tanks that don't get sold and the species and live rock that simply end up in the garbage.  I dont think you need to post an endangered species on the classifieds section in order to contribute to wildlife conservation.... but maybe if all aquaria clubs do this, we will prevent further loss of liverock (habitat destruction/degradation) and overharvesting of reef fish.  I'm sure some people won't go through the effort of e-mailing you asking to save their fishtank because they can't access the classifieds.  They will just post it on kijiji or Used Ottawa.... or won't go through any more effort and simply throw it out.

Also, one point that I failed to mention in my previous post is preventing the release of foreign species into the Ottawa Valley habitats.  Currently, invasive species are taking over some native habitats due to captive releases.  People being able to sell or trade their unwanted pets may be less inclined to release these into the wild.  Examples of such specimens that have been released and currently are not native to eastern Ontario but are affecting local wildlife include Purple loosestrife, Common Carp and Red-eared Slider turtles.  These species tend to out-compete our native species therefore causing our native wildlife to decline in numbers rapidly.

It seems to me as though money has been set as a priority for OVAS over their initial stated objectives of "to work towards the conservation of endangered species".

[FocusFin]

I'm not a member, but that is because I'm rarely available on the 4th Monday of every

This is a crock.

All of this is over $20.00...that's really what we're talking about, let's be honest.

If the memberships were free, everyone would have one and none of this would be an issue. The fact is that many people benefit from coming to this site either by becoming informed about the hobby, solving a fish related dilemma or by perhaps picking up a deal and then ultimately choose not to give back to the club because they don't want to part with $20.00. That's their prerogative and no one is faulting them...until now.

I'm going to offend a few people for this no doubt but I feel I have something to offer on this subject for a couple of reason. Firstly, I became a member almost immediately after my first posting in 2007, I never hesitated because I appreciated having somewhere local to get info. Secondly, in an effort to help out the club I "donated" 5 memberships to encourage first time members. Actually it was more self serving than that, I was hoping to shame/guilt, whatever, those individuals who frequented the site without ever having purchased a membership.

I've never understood how people can purchase hundreds, even thousands of dollars worth of equipment and livestock and then balk at paying out $20.00 to be a member. Even if you don't want to be part of the club, it's a small price to pay to support something that is beneficial, helpful and enjoyable.

Snowgrrl, I've attended a grand total of 4 meetings in 4 years but that has never stopped me from purchasing a membership. Your complaint is misdirected and to lay this at the foot of OVAS because others choose to be irresponsible or uncaring is unwarranted and I believe it is nothing more than a canard designed to hide the fact that you are too cheap to spring for a membership. If I am wrong, then prove me so by purchasing a membership, I'll even kick in a few dollars.


Mike

[robt18]

I'd also like to add that most people who are preserving endagered species (like breeding w/c rare/endagered fish) are likely members already. It requires extensive set ups, and many of these people have taken information from the club site/other members. Personally I've modelled some set ups after other members' tank build threads, and it had nothing to do with the classifieds. OVAS also has a local breeders directory. If someone is breeding rare fish there's a good chance they'd want their names on there. No classifieds required!

[Brent Shaver]

I agree a whole 5.4 cents a day to have access to gifted speakers and talented hobbyist which not only help us but give us with ideas/knowedge we might not have been privileged to otherwise, and then lets not forget the the discounts given by our sponsors that by themselves give you back your money.

As far as the club being about the money, hire a guest speaker, arrange a monthly meeting hall or a BBQ, Christmas party to name a few. In reality that whole 4.5 cents is a small price to pay to be part of something that does care about the same things.

I agree with some of Snowgirl's post, but to hang the environmental impact of the world on the OVAS classified is just a tad crazy.

In a nut shell people can still buy from the classifieds and as mentioned there isn't anyone on this site that wouldn't post for someone getting rid of an unwanted fish for free.

[dan2x38]

As a member I do not feel it a bad thing to allow non OVAS members access to post in the classifieds. In fact I think it helps members. Limiting their post totals to that section is more appropriate.

As a member I have no issue with non OVAS members using this website. To me it's the club promoting the hobby, promoting aquaria and preserving aquatic life. That is the primary purpose of this club. The primary purpose shouldn't be forcing non-members to cough up 20 bucks, ten bucks or even one dollar.

People for whatever reason do not want to pay $20 will not want to if their feeling pressured to do so. I feel it is human nature to resist when pushed or when someone feels their pushed for them to resist even more.

[Snowgrrl83]

Let me know when the Classifieds are open to everyone again, then, I'll gladly buy a membership.  Right now, I have no reason to buy a membership and proving that I'm "not cheap" isn't a good enough reason.  OVAS needs to show me that they aren't going to cheap out of their current conservation objective, and then I'll reciprocate by being grateful and buying a membership.  I'm simply trying to be informative by demonstrating the fact that restricting Classifieds isn't necessarily in the best interest of the responsible aquaria-keeping.  Understand that I'm spending my entire career promoting wildlife conservation and preventing species from becoming extinct.

I was really wanting/thinking of buying an OVAS membership in December when I learnt all about OVAS, but, really, the attitude of the club is becoming less and less appealing to me.

[FocusFin]

I was really wanting/thinking of buying an OVAS membership in December when I learnt all about OVAS, but, really, the attitude of the club is becoming less and less appealing to me.

I was thinking of donating $10,000 to the Diabetes Foundation but their telerep was rude to me so I didn't. You see how easy it is to say that. The fact is you didn't buy a membership and then had the audacity to come here and complain about an organization that is run completely by volunteers.

Frankly, your attitude is less and less appealing and I doubt the club needs someone who doesn't contribute to it but opts only to complain about it.

[FishPassion]

I have been a member for several years and will continue supporting this local club for years to come all tho it has been a few years since I have attended a meeting. If you will allow me to add my "intelligent 2 cents worth in" Snowgrrl why would you absolutely need a classified of any sort if you are desperate enough to release for example red eared sliders into the wild any not give them away free even on kijiji or reptile shelters. Big Als would probably take them and unwanted fish off peoples hands as well. People don't read forums and alot dont care or listen anyways when they want something they buy it, and when they get tired of it dump it anywhere at all just as long as they see or have to deal with it. So why should OVAS "have" to open there classifieds to everyone I agree with them its become a dumping ground for people to sell what they dont want or cant take care of anymore. Go to Big Al's on a Sunday its a zoo in there and how many "educated" buyers are in there that have read forums asked questions before they have bought not that many yes there are some. (hats off to the employees of any LFS you have better nerves than I do) I dont usually post anymore because I became fed up of giving advice to deaf ears. Brent Shaver and others brought up some solid points thanks guys !!!! For twenty bucks a year you get sooooooooooooo much from OVAS go hire some speakers to come to Ottawa, BBQS, The Big Annual OVAS auction which I believe is open to the general public, Give your head a shake you cant get much of a magazine subscription for $20

[Snowgrrl83]

Hi Rob,

Thanks for your post.  I agree, it is really great that OVAS promotes local captive breeders on their website.  Captive-bred endangered species are also great.   

I feel as though the opinions are quite divided right now!!  There are some great sponsors on OVAS that really do promote captive-bred fish, even on the saltwater side and captive bred SW fish are becoming more and more readily available!  I really wish I had the time/money to do captive breeding - seems very fascinating.

But, captive breeding should be a last resort in order to save an endangered species.  Its really better to prevent initial declines early than have to reintroduce the species into the wild and do aquaculture in order to save it.  Unfortunately, for many species kept in our tanks (esp. saltwater), many haven't successfully been bred in captivity yet.  I once found a list of SW fish that are regularly captive-bred on Reefcentral.com which really encouraged me to only keep those species found in the list!

That still doesn't change the fact that Classifieds could prevent fish from being thrown out/flushed down.

[Brent Shaver]

That still doesn't change the fact that Classifieds could prevent fish from being thrown out/flushed down.

Only if they are too lazy to go to a LFS to donate it, or ask a member to post a Free Fish post...

Or is it about making money?

[Snowgrrl83]

People don't read forums and alot dont care or listen anyways when they want something they buy it, and when they get tired of it dump it anywhere at all just as long as they see or have to deal with it. So why should OVAS "have" to open there classifieds to everyone I agree with them its become a dumping ground for people to sell what they dont want or cant take care of anymore. Go to Big Al's on a Sunday its a zoo in there and how many "educated" buyers are in there that have read forums asked questions before they have bought not that many yes there are some. (hats off to the employees of any LFS you have better nerves than I do)

Just because some people sink that low and throw anything out without thinking and buy before thinking doesn't mean that we have to do the same, FishPassion.  I'm not saying OVAS "has" to open the classifieds to everyone... I'm saying they should and that its the responsible and right thing to do.  I think they are taking a step back by not doing so.

Only if they are too lazy to go to a LFS to donate it, or ask a member to post a Free Fish post...

Or is it about making money?

So I haven't posted anything on the classifieds, except a LF post that was unsuccessful.  I can see how some for-profit individuals may be posting on the classifieds on a regular basis and not going through the traditional "sponsor" route.  Maybe individuals are only allowed a maximum of X numbers of posts on the classifieds section per year, otherwise, they need to become a retailer?! Maybe that would be a better option as a Classifieds rule.

[Adam]

As a long-time OVAS member and forum sponsor, this directly hurts me as, if the 75% classified ad users figure is correct, it means I have less traffic to see ads and my sponsor forum. 

I became a member because the classified ads drew me in.  I wonder how many others are in the same boat?

[Hookup]

Maybe the changes and new rules were discussed at a prior meeting, but I'm sure that there are many members, and non-members who would like to know the process taken to arrive at such changes.
   1. New rules
   2. removal of lounge
   3. changes to classifieds

Was there an opinion poll taken? Was there some discussion threads in the members forum?  Were there discussions during the formal meetings?  Etc...  And maybe there were, and if so... The members have spoken and their executive has responded accordingly.  Be happy, it's a working system.


I know over they past two years there has always been a love/hate relationship with the classifieds section....

[holachicka]

Focusfin - no one is attacking anyone and yet you are calling people cheap, too lazy and outright mocking others! I am pretty sure you are in clear violation of our new forum rules! We are all, members or not, entitled to have an opinion, how we chose to voice it is what counts. Snowgrl83 took the time and effort to voice her opinion, politely, you took all of 2 seconds to blast off hasty nasty words...as a member here on OVAS, I object to you treating people this way while preaching about being a paying member - now THAT is not what OVAS stands for!

Jessie