Very Disappointed

[mseguin]

I personally don't get any benefit out of signing up for a membership so that is why I don't have one.  

How about you get to support your local hobby club made up of people with interests like yourself?

[Nyx]

dpatte, you do raise some valid points. I especially agree that social clubs in the physical sense are in severe decline. I do most of my socialization online. It's simply more convenient and I prefer it. I just don't agree that restricting the classifieds will have that huge of an impact on club memberships, one way or the other. However, I would think that one's opinion on the matter is largely dictated by what roll they see the forum as performing and how important the personal classifieds are to them. So, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree.

[Fishnut]

WARNING>>>the following is my opinion mixed with quite a bit of frustration:

Everyone here is griping about how the lack of a stupid open classified section is not good for the club and that the exec's decision to make it members only was bad for the club.  Did anyone EVER think of how all that ridiculous forum abuse looked to the outside world?  The cliche "Why buy the cow when you can get the milk for free" definitely applies.  Clubs are supposed to be exclusive!  Name one club that is inclusive to everyone and anyone to wander in and out, using their resources without loyalty and without contributing!

Perhaps we're unaware of the extent of the drama and other junk that is posted on this site because exec volunteers spend a heck of a lot of their personal time to try to keep this site clean and friendly.  This takes away from the precious time they have to spend with their families and enjoying the hobby, which brought them to OVAS in the first place.  If most of that time is being taken up by editing, deleting, banning, warning, explaining, re-explaining, oh...some more re-explaining, then on top of that they get crapped on for using their volunteer time trying to make things better...wow...who would want to be on the exec? How many execs are we going to loose this year because of all this?  We're already down one...a really good one too.    I'm sure eventually more and more amazing people will get disgusted and quit the exec, stop logging on and eventually stop buying memberships and showing up at meetings.  I think there's already a pretty long list of people who have done that.  

Sure they can ask for moderation volunteers but as soon as the moderators are announced, there's going to be more complaining about who was chosen and the reasons for not choosing others...blah blah blah.  OVASC...Ottawa Valley Aquarium Society of Complaining

Look at the big picture. If things go back to the way they were, OVAS, IMO will go back to being a local ebay.  The "local ebay" section will be filled with people who have no loyalty or connection to the club as well as people and/or sneaky businesses who are profiting via our resource without helping to pay for it.  What's next?  A movement by non-members to turn the monthly meetings into monthly garage sale and swap meets?  Ugh...

If the classified section is the end-all-be-all and a MAJOR reason this website gets any traffic, then why waste so much time and effort in maintaining the rest of the website?  I bet there would be less complaining if the exec had voted to delete all the forums except the classified.

Whatever happened to PMing the exec or emailing them with complaints?  Wouldn't that be a more respectful route for the exec and other people who participate on these forums?  Debate or no debate, I'm getting tired of reading about how people want the classifieds re-opened.

[bergenm]

Clubs are supposed to be exclusive!  Name one club that is inclusive to everyone and anyone to wander in and out, using their resources without loyalty and without contributing!

If that is how the club feel, restrict access to the entire site to paying members only - problem solved.

If not, you have to expect this type of response - there are 2200 members on ovas.ca and only about 10% are paying members. If you implement new rules that negatively effect over 90% of the members, and many of the paying members disagree with as well, you have to expect this sort of reaction.

You either have to accept it or squash it, but I suspect this topic will keep coming up for quite a while...

[JetJumper]

How about you get to support your local hobby club made up of people with interests like yourself?

I do this by giving people a helping hand if they require it. 

[Hookup]

Wow - and since everyone's attention is here anyhow...

If the direction of OVAS does change towards an open social networking style environment, I personally would love to contribute.  I've made such statements in the past when these types of issues were debated, the club chose to go a different direction though my offer still stands. 

@fishnut; the world is embracing social networking, open source, and other e-communities and most of them are not money generating in any fashion, just sharing.  Text Messaging, MSN, Linked-IN, MySpace, Facebook, Twitter, etc, etc define the standard of how society communicates.


More on topic with this thread, I missed the part where the issues were listed and help was asked for.  All I saw, was here are some new rules, and the debauchery that ensued.

If this was done, I think a healthy dose of reality should be applied.  Your input and help was asked for, no one stepped up, so rules were created to fill the gap.

Assuming this was not done, which btw, is my assumption, then I still do not think that I have a place here.

that's my 1 cent, I'll go away again now.  Sorry for the interruption.

[Nerine]

I don't get it....

Do people think that if a club for their hobby doesn't ALWAYS have a topic or meetings revolving around that ONE specific thing, does that mean you can't support the club at all? Shouldn't that mean you should become MORE involved to change things?? I do not have salt water or african set ups or much of any set up other than catfish right now, yet I still attend meetings, and I'm on the exec...but I haven't been to one meeting yet that was pure catfish speak or pure guppy speak....unless I'm ill (or the baby is ill) I am at the salt water, african, killie, coldwater, local fish talks....it's called getting out of the house, meeting with other people who share my interest in preserving our little eco systems and getting to meet new people and convincing them that catfish are the way to go and everyone should buy brown fish....

Doesn't it boil down to we have water in glass boxes....Just because I'm a catfish person doesn't mean I stop at just that...

When I joined OVAS I had a betta bowl...but that didn't stop me from getting back into the hobby, the meetings made my interests grow and I knew I had experiences to offer

So it's sad that some feel the club has nothing to offer them and that's why they don't have a membership, they don't see the benefits, but I wonder if people stopped to think of what THEY have to offer and the benefits that others have to gain from them....

my two cents plus hst.

Yes this topic will keep coming up for awhile, but I hope we get to our new site soon...that way people have other things on their mind

Oh yes and don't forget...NOT EVERYONE IS ONLINE! There are members at the meetings who do not frequent this site...so what happens to them??

[mseguin]

Are yuo serious? Facebook, msn not about generating money? There are arguments being made that Facebook could become one of the biggest corporations in the world.
As for social networking, there are studies showing that relationships built on social networks such as Facebook and the like do not have any lasting power. So if friendships formed on a social network don't translate well, how about clubs where people come and go freely. How long do you expect that to last? I bet a lot of people thought their groups on Myspace would last forever, until the bottom fell out on that one. The very nature of the internet is transient and flowing, which makes it hard to run a club on it.

[93GTCANADA]

who said anything about facebook 

[Sharbuckle]

this website has become a joke, everybody grow up...... Done

[dan2x38]

Let's keep this thread low key and on track. The O/P posted regarding disappointment especially since he was an original creator on the web team that help to activate this website. He is also a past president and executive at other levels so he has done his part and unserstands the tasks at hand. This is not the first time there has been changes to the site that were not agreed with by all. He is voicing his opinion and making a statement on the original propose of the site which I read as a free sort of outreach by the club to others inviting them to join through attraction not promotion.

I am impressed this has remained low key and no serious rock throwing has started I for one would encourage it to stay on that path. I hope it doesn't get locked that mods watch for anyone trying to insight it getting derailed just to see it locked.

Of course those serious about the hobby do not want to a swap shop or garage sale on line only or at meetings. The points made are valid of why the classifieds were first created. Of course everyone is not going to agree this is human nature. We can disagree but hopefully not to just disagree and if we do it is OK to disagree but not to be rude to one another.

I know and I am sure everyone knows that the exec. works hard. It is also likely understood by everyone that it wouldn't continue without volunteers but there are many who just aren't built that way (to volunteer) and that is OK. I am sorry to see exec. leave feeling they are unappreciated and stressed out but I do not think there are people who seriously try to invoke those feelings on them. If they do step down or a side it is not the fault of others but their choice to do so. At least that is my opinion. No one can make me do anything I do not wish to do. When I stepped down it was related to health and some OVAS stress but it was all my freedom of choice to quit.

Again I am just voicing my opinions as others and really would like to see open discussion continue without hostilities.

[93GTCANADA]

I agree with Dan. I am not good with words I tend to come across the wrong way online and in person. 

[Hookup]

Are yuo serious? Facebook, msn not about generating money? There are arguments being made that Facebook could become one of the biggest corporations in the world.

Yes, 100% serious.  the technology provider generates money, the advertisers generate "marketing" which leads to money, but the clubs, groups, etc are not generating money...  Unless I'm doing something wrong, in 2 years I've not seen a dime from my facebook account, nor have I given one to any of the dozen or so groups I'm a member in... They are getting people together who have similar interests and allowing for very free-form information exchange with self-moderation as the norm.

As for social networking, there are studies showing that relationships built on social networks such as Facebook and the like do not have any lasting power. So if friendships formed on a social network don't translate well, how about clubs where people come and go freely. How long do you expect that to last? I bet a lot of people thought their groups on Myspace would last forever, until the bottom fell out on that one. The very nature of the internet is transient and flowing, which makes it hard to run a club on it.

Social networking is here for a while at least and anyone who is not on-board at time should really take a good look at the world around them.  It has changed the way people interact and therefore has challanged some of the classic definitions of friendship and relationships.  Facebook being one of the biggest corporations in the world should be a pretty clear argument that, in general, the world is embracing this style of communication and interaction.  Just as in the late 90's every company was getting a web-site built, now companies are getting onto facebook/twitter/myspace, etc which is a demonstration of the masses interacting with these systems/technologies.  (good luck buying a phone with out an "app" for accessing this stuff)

There is an entire emerging practice, happening right now, where companies are shifting from email based communications to private/public social networking systems.  Companies are realizing that by embracing these concepts/technologies, they stand to gain far more than by banning access to them and trying to eliminate them. (all clubs/groups/etc could learn from this example)

You do raise an interesting point about social networking relationships not having lasting power.  It's very likely quite true though I am not aware of any studies of this nature.  However this really demonstrates one of the greatest strengths of these technologies, which is that the content, the contributions and the existence of the "social network" itself is stronger than any one relationship.  It grows and shrinks and becomes something much bigger than the collection of "virtual-friends".

[Fishnut]

Fishnut if you can't handle the heat then maybe you shouldn't be in the kitchen. I don't mean to disrespect but I have noticed on multiple occassion you flying off the handle.

Ok, slightly off topic but perhaps this is a good quote to use as an example of why people either don't volunteer for the exec and why some leave.  If you get enough of this type of comment because you post on a subject you're passionate about and thoroughly frustrated with it would certainly CAUSE a person to exercise that freedom to choose not to be part of an organization who's users talk to others in that way.  I'm stubborn but I'm getting sick of not being able to post my opinions on this site without being specifically snarked at.

Yes, 100% serious.  the technology provider generates money, the advertisers generate "marketing" which leads to money, but the clubs, groups, etc are not generating money...  Unless I'm doing something wrong, in 2 years I've not seen a dime from my facebook account, nor have I given one to any of the dozen or so groups I'm a member in... They are getting people together who have similar interests and allowing for very free-form information exchange with self-moderation as the norm.

I have a Facebook page that gets people together who are interested in what I do for a living.  I, therefore make money from Facebook.

[93GTCANADA]

no one said you can't post your opinion. everyone can. you can be passionate about something. it's the way you present your opinions. I will not stop expressing my opinions because I am worried someone will take it personally. when someone writes somethign about the exec's you see it as a personal attack. people are just expressing how they feel. it is what it is. life is to short to worry about all these little things. i expressed my opinion and that's that.

[dpatte]

I like the idea that this whole topic is being kept on one thread, to let the other threads function normally.

I'm reminded of the word 'crisis'.

In Chinese crisis is written as a combination of two ideograms..

The first is 'danger', which is obvious. There is no doubt that with strong opinions, there is a danger here for the whole club.

But the second part of the word crisis, is 'opportunity'.

I believe that if this debate is healthy, and it is used as an opportunity, it can help OVAS grow to become an even better club for all its members.

I think thats possible, if we all remember that we all take something different from the club and the website, and contribute something different as well.

Healthy discussion can take us to the next level - a wider, more open and inviting aquarium club that is resource for anyone on the web, and an active membership that is growing when all other clubs are declining.

[Hookup]

I have a Facebook page that gets people together who are interested in what I do for a living.  I, therefore make money from Facebook.

I thought I was clear...

Yes, 100% serious.  the technology provider generates money, the advertisers generate "marketing" which leads to money, but the clubs, groups, etc are not generating money... 

Or were you supporting my point of view... if so, thanks... We agree... Marketing on these sites does lead to money!

[KrazieCanuck]

I have to say that I was very disappointed to see that you have chosen the direction that you have.  To lock down the classifieds so that non-paying members cannot post not only hurts then but it also punishes the paying members of the site.  Why would you want to limit the availability of fish, corals, equipment, and tanks from only 10% of your user base.  Whether you like it or not, the classified are probably the largest draw to OVAS.  The inability to post Livestock or dry equipment takes away from the "community" feel.  It all sounds like a bit of a "money grab" to me, but in the long run I feel it will really hurt the society in the end.  Initially you may have some people switch from non-paying to paying, but over time you will probably find that growth has been severely stunted for new members.  Making the site a "closed" community will help eliminate some issues, but could eventually lead to the ultimate decline and possible end of the OVAS community.  Who's to stop someone from opening up their own "free" Ottawa aquarium community for all of those that feel betrayed or shut out of OVAS based on the decisions that have been made.

I for one am one of those "non-paying" members and enjoy reading the forums as well as checking the classifieds for anyone that selling something of interest.  Hearing that I am only limited to approx. 10% of the active community destroys the whole purpose.  Why would I, as a non-paying or even paying member, only want to see what 10% of the people are selling.  Your getting 1 out of 10 posts for items that may be readily available.  I feel for the person (and livestock) that comes on here that has fish, corals, or any other livestock that he can no longer care for and wants to offer them to knowledgeable hobbyist but cannot and has to resort to UsedOttawa or kijiji and sell to someone that may have absolutely no idea what they are buying.  I don't post much, I don't attend meetings, and I don't feel I should pay for information that is readily available everywhere else on the internet.  I do however enjoy the feeling of having a place to go and read about the hobby I love and knowing that there are lots of other people in the Ottawa region that enjoy it just as much that I can contact.

Anyways, I've typed enough.  I hope you will reverse or decision on this as I cannot see any long term good this will provide to the community.  To those paying members, I feel bad that because of these decisions you will suffer as well.

Also, should decisions of this nature not be voted upon by your "paying" club members?  Most clubs I've heard of have the executives make proposals that go to a vote of their members.  Maybe I'm wrong?

My 2 cents...take it as you like...

[Brent Shaver]

It all sounds like a bit of a "money grab" to me

This statement is getting so old, it sounds like a non paying member doesnt want to cough up $20 but expects to have full access to a paid membership club???

I give Tim Hortons more then $20 a week and all I get in return for my investment is heartburn.  At least here I get to learn and share experiences about this hobby.

As for this site being based around the classifieds?? ARE YOU SERIOUS???  There is records dating back to 1958, I can see how the classifieds made this club what it is.

[dpatte]

Some non-card-holding users of the site contribute far more than $20 of value in their advice and and other contributions to the club.

I'm not actually suggesting it, but I had an odd idea, perhaps the club should be split in two - one paying club with meetings, etc., and one free club with a website only. If that seems too drastic, then perhaps it will help people understand how these two sides must coexist to support each other, as they had been.