Very Disappointed

[dpatte]

All I'm hearing is that most people are afraid to leave their keyboards alone long enough to go out and actually meet people face to face. Have people lost all social skills or is what you are saying it has been replaced by a computer. If so, I apparently am wasting my efforts.

Well, to be honest, the more social interaction there is online, the more likely you will get members that buy a memerbership and turn out to meet their online contacts in person.

It may not be what you want, but i believe it is a fact of life that many people prefer to interact online first.

All organizations based on primarily physical interaction have been in decline for the last 40 years - churches, humanitarian organizations (lions, rotary), common interest groups (legion, hobby clubs). Many people also have too many timing considerations to make it to a meeting at a particular time. There are also those people that don;t live nearby, or don;t have the time or money for transportation.

People want to interact on their own schedule, learn on their own schedule, and to stay close to home because of other responsibilities (family - for one). Online frienships, if strong enough, may pull out at most 10% of online people if you are lucky. Want more at your meetings? Then build a vibrant interactive community on your website.

The website has the potential of being HUGE.

There are nearly 100,000 homes in Ottawa Gatineau with aquariums or ponds or goldfish bowls. And a positive inclusive website can reach beyond Ottawa. There are likely 3,000,000 homes in Canada alone where there might be interest in our shared knowledge. A website with 20,000 members can make alot of money in advertising, and draw alot of paid members, for the club meetings.

 

[dpatte]

It seems to me that the underlying issues are as follows:
- there where underlying moderation issues on the site which helped to increase normal (though unfortunate) disagreements between online users in the chat areas.
- there are some that don't see how private vendors in the classfieds are a benefit to all web users.
- as the executive are all meeting-going members, many don't recognize the value of the website to the thousands of website users, and how the website helps build the whole club and paid membership. Their opinions are therefore somewhat biased towards the meetings, and against the website. Meeting goers therefore are also a bad choice as website moderators. Several moderators should represent the online user that is NOT YET a meetings person.

How many of the executive became members without joining the website first? Did using the site, and chatting with the websuers online not encourage you actually buy a membership, then become an exec?

Solve the underlying problems without limiting the site usage, and you will enhance the website - AND the club membership as a whole.

The moderation problem is not solved as the solutions attempted are upsetting a majority of 2000 OVAS webusers. not good PR for the club!

I, for one, don't like the idea of 1000+ active webusers now taking their frustration with ovas to their other chatrooms and websites. The PR consequences are a disaster for OVAS. Large companies have collapsed in weeks when the web base is blocked - because of the bad PR.

Its not an easy problem, and it needs a team to find a better solution, and it needs people online to know that a better solution is being ACTIVELY studied.

As an aside: From the day the site was setup, I have had mixed feelings about the classifieds. The club takes no commission from sales or advertising in the personal clasifieds, and perhaps impinges slightly on the sales of our commercial vendors (of they sell used items or livestock), and perhaps cuts profits from the monthly auctions and the big auction. At least so I thought.

But online vendors will go elsewhere online, if they cant list on ovas - you cant force anyone to drag there items into a meeting if they can list it online for free.

So, shouldnt ovas members get first dibs on items for sale, or wanted? Don;t we want them coming back regularly and interacting with our club membership FIRST, before listing their items on 1 of 100 other sites?

As for lost profits from classified, i believe they are totally minimal. If somone lists for sale on classified, a person has to go out of his way to see an item. The buyer has made an extra investment in time that isnt necessary at an auction.

I believe that a vibrant website attracts MORE people to auctions, especially if they have met the vendors elsewhere, than if they never met through the OVAS classified. The classifieds build relationships that enhance, not detract, from the auctions. classified build trust in good sellers, and build a reputation for the OVAS auctions.




 

[93GTCANADA]

i agree with dpatte. I don't have time to go to meetings. I also don't always have the answers to fish questions. But in lounge maybe I could of helped in other ways.

The problem with the exec's is they don't see this website being valuable like most of us do. I have met a ton of people online who have become real good friends afterwards. I think you guys are not seeing the big picture here.

[dan2x38]

I'm no longer into the plant side of things or breeding fish. When I did it was for enjoying the hobby more not to make money. I sold the results of those efforts in the classifieds here 'ONLY'. I met more different people than when I attended meetings.

At meetings there is a core membership that attends those are the folks I mostly talked with and already knew. But through the classifieds I met a larger amount of people that I'd only ever scene on line - put the face to the name. At that time I would encourage those buyers to come out to a meeting see what it was all about. Tell them they could bring their plant clippings to the mini auction and have a laugh. Also told them those fry that they'd end up giving to the LFS they could also try to sell at that the mini auctions. Not a fortune but at those mini auctions the club gets a commission. I also noticed when I was Membership Chair that those same folks I'd met in my home who came out to a meeting often bought a membership from me. It was the website classifieds that had our pathes cross.

As for the Lounge there were many a thread that made people laugh and enjoy. The viewed count on some of those threads were in the 1000s even 10,000s! But now I see the ShoutBox being used for some off topic sales and other stuff instead of the Lounge!

No matter how you dice it and what side of the fence you are on when you take something away from something the whole is smaller - it less than what it was that's just simple basic mathematics.

Whether anyone likes it or not social on line networking is real and dominates our society today. There are apps/mods for this software that can be installed to update Twitter/Facebook/MySpace when a post is made to a certain board. They can even forward notifications to your text enabled phone if you like. There are other aquarium forums using these features right now!

I do not like change basically I'm a creature of habit. When CDs first came out they were expensive and I believed they lied about their durability too. I fought the switch over and believed it was a fad product that would fall to the way side to a cheaper medium that would be more durable - it was years before I owned a CD player even a DVD player. OK Dan you'll alright - NOT! LOL

The point is technology especially in IT grows at a 10:1 ratio over most any other R&D today. To fight against joining that wave is fool hearty. The numbers of companies and other organizations that have died because they did not get on the web is staggering. If you can't be found quickly today the person searching moves on with a click of the mouse. Who doesn't have an email address now? In 1995 less than 20% of people had one. Look at difference today - God I have at least 4.

[FishPassion]

It is with great hesitation that I reply to this thread but I feel that having been a member for the past 6 years I will voice my thoughts. I have posted less and less over the past years to the point of not posting at all for my own personal reasons on this site and have wandered away to another site where the member postings were of a "friendlier" and more informative manner. I used this web based club as "my social interaction" for the following reasons I live over an hour away from Ottawa and the distance combined with my "health" issues for those that know me prevent me from being the social butterfly that I would like to be at meetings and gatherings. I must admit that over the last several years I did only come in to view the classifieds and got out again. I quite agree the classifieds is not a one time dumping ground for livestock and equipment for consumers but it shouldn't be a morgue either. Quite frankly if these one timers are monitored closely what harm is it creating, and perhaps nominal fee of a buck or two per classified ad could be administered for those that are hesitant to become members. I remember a few years back I started a thread something to the effect of where have the oldtimers gone or something like that I really missed the experienced advice that was given from these folks that have disappeared or no longer post and I have found myself to now have become one of themas well for various reasons that I wont go into detail about.  

Enough said I have spoke my piece...



David Patte as one of the "old timers" and past execs keep the drive alive!!! I'm happy to see you voicing your opinions on something you worked hard at years ago...

Sincerely Klaus Jenett  

[fischkopp]

A few comment on the changes, misconceptions, opinions in this recent debate:

What is the reason of the changes.
Although it has been said earlier (here and here) I will explain once more what led to the changes in the classifieds: We were concerned about the image of the club. Over the past years, in which the classifieds accelerated this forum to new levels, OVAS became know not as aquatic club, but as an specialized market place for anything aquatic with a forum attached to it. Most people that signed up as new users on this forum only did this to offer sell there stuff; there was mostly no identification or knowledge about the presence of this club. Some people stayed to become active on the forum, but totally ignored that this forum is part of a club, only very few realized that and joined. However, OVAS has created this website spread it's existence, but there was no emphasis on this since anyone could use ovas.ca to all extend, be it a member of the club or someone who doesn't even know about it. This has eventually turned away many club members from OVAS, because the manners of those having no relation to the club at all were no the greatest at all time. By making the classifieds members only we knowledge those who make OVAS what it is.

It's just a money grab after all.
So your reason not to join OVAS is that they want $20 from you to be able to place an add? If you still think that start reading from the beginning again. And how is that logical anyway? If you wanted to join OVAS before, well, then it gives you the possibility to use our online classified. Nobody is forcing you into an OVAS membership just to place an ad. There are plenty of sites out there that allow you to do that for free, although even those have a charge if you want to make your ad look fancy. We can't stop you from getting a membership just to place an ad on OVAS as we don't screen and allow anyone (unless you have violated some major rules) to become part of OVAS, but this is certainly not encouraged by us.

But don't you the the social aspect of the classifieds?
It can't be neglected that the classifieds are have a social aspect when the transaction takes place. I meet many great people this way. But isn't it a bit strange that you have to be payed to become social? Where is your own initiative? Your own effort. You speak about social, but you are not willing to recognize the social organization that makes this possible in the first place. Come out if you want to socialize, we at OVAS offer plenty of venues to meet and chat with fellows. We don't bite. I don't mean to insult anyone, but this argument is cheap.

Speaking of cheap.
We live in the 21st century, it's really a great time, the communication age, and it has been affected greatly be the Internet. Vast knowledge is available everywhere, and it doesn't cost a penny. Doesn't OVAS realize that, why do they still want to pay us a membership fee? Is the whole concept of the club not outdated these days?
As with many things in life, you get what you pay for. And the Internet is no exception. There are millions of experts out there that will tell you in many ways what's right, but you will have a hard time finding the real, well known expert, telling you his opinion. Many things are free on the web, and of course there some great resources out there. But the web has also changed our perception: when so many things are free, why shall I suddenly pay for it. The attitude goes around, that only free is good, especially in the web.
There are those huge online communities, international, thousands of members, free of course, doesn't OVAS see the trend? Well, we do. But we don't want to compete with them; we do not want turn OVAS into an online community. OVAS is local. We believe in social communication as it was done in the old days: in person. We like to spend time together to share our new experiences and talk fish. We like to attend events and listen to someone who share his experiences with out. It's the human factor that is important to us, and which gets lost way to often in on the Internet.
Unfortunately, any event requires a venue, speakers transportation, etc, and as life is not virtual, everything costs money. And believe it or not, website hosting isn't for free either. These are just few examples for what your membership contribution is used for. And how do you feel about this.

Moderation has overwhelmed them.
Yes, there have been serious threats in the past, we had to get the police involved, these individuals had no stay here. This is out of questions. The problem with moderation in the past was a missing clear line for everyone to follow. That is the reason why we finally put rules in place that are used to govern the OVAS's forum. Moderation since has been minimal, and to be honest was only necessary because of violations of the recent changes, mainly those to the classifieds board. With this being an website being an extension of the club it is also very difficult to ignore disrespect shown towards the club, it's committee, and it's decisions, especially if it is shown by individuals that show no interest for the club at all. The continuous defending of decisions that were made with the best interests of the club in mind towards an audience, that doesn't care for the reasons that led to them, can be very exhausting at times.

The web traffic.
If you made is this far, you will realize that OVAS doesn't really care if we get fifty or thousand hits per day. We are interested in reaching out to the local aquatic community, and provide them an online home for the time between our events as we do recognize the change in time, as well as the fact that someone can't show up to any or all meetings due to personal commitments. This is the place to stay in touch and learn about your aquatic neighbour. That said, the forum has been as active as ever, which is surprising in these summer months. And you shouldn't confuse the number of registered accounts (2000) with those, that are actually active from time to time (100). This is a small community.
What makes me said though is that threads like these still draw way more attention to them than actual discussions about the hobby. This has been a problem with this site ever since I know about it and caused way more damage to the club than anything else. People that have been in the club for quite some time get tired of this and turn their back to OVAS. New once are scared away without getting a chance to learn what OVAS is about. Well done.



Do you think this is really worth it?
Do you want to talk fish?
Do you know what OVAS is?


These are the reasons why I supported this change, which now looks like a lollipop we took away from a little kid.

Robert Hemp
OVAS Secretary & Webmaster

[TLe041]

...which now looks like a lollipop we took away from a little kid.

It's this kind of arrogance from the Execs that I caused me to change my mind about joining the club.

If you're going to post a reply to formally address an issue on behalf of the club, lose the condescending tone. Believe it or not, everyone here is an adult even if they disagree with your point of view.

[markw]

Well said Robert...I've been banging my head against a wall trying to explain our reasoning, but obviously there are those that will not understand it.  However, please if nothing else try and respect the work that goes into this club and the dedication required to proceed. Constant negativity is not helping anything. Both sides have spoken and this is going nowhere fast. We obviously won't change anyone's mind about why we did what had to be done.

[FishPassion]

I am truly saddened that this is what its all finally come to at OVAS and that a few ill mannered individuals have ruined what I have enjoyed for years. This situation has been growing over the past several years and I hope that the exec and club members will have the strength and solutions to bring the club back on its feet for all to enjoy again.

[dpatte]

I have alot of comments

- if the site didnt promote and help grow the club, why do several of the previous executives feel the changes will decrease the membership of the club?
- the website could help promote the club more by having its front page up-to-date.
- all sites have some garbage. Have you been to ctv.ca lately? its normal.
- on one hand you say the website mebers make the club look bad, and then say that its only the paid members that can make it look good. If the website was so bad, why did it have over 2000 members?
- if you make the classifieds members only, even members will have to start posting elsewhere, because they will get the traffic they want, for free.
- no one will pay $20 to place an ad when its free elsewhere. Thats obvious. But some people after placing an ad will join the club after meeting people.
- people become social in stages. first people want the items for their hobby, then they may chat online, then they may join the club. its not the other way around as the executive suggests.
- 2000+ people have come in contact with ovas BECAUSE OF its online community and helped push the paid membership from 13 to over 200 in 7 years.

- if people don;t like the execs decisions, they can ask for the reasons - if the exec expects to be listened to, but insists on ignoring the concerns of those in contact with the club, or past execs that had a bigger vision, then they are doing the whole club a dis-service.

- yes websites cost time and money - but there are advertisers on the site, due to the thousands of people that come to the site.

I'd be interested in knowing the net direction of money. Is more money going from the club to support the website, or is it the other way around - is the income on the website supporting the club? I wont even mention how many join the paid membership after seeing the dynamic website.

- you say you are reaching out to the acquatic community, but have limited 2000 members of the website. Thats contradictory.

Finally, and I said this before, if you lose the traffic to the website, you will lose your first contact for thousands of potential members. People will go to other websites and never even hear the name of the club. advertisers will sell online elsewhere, people will meet that are not members, and ovas as an old-style club will dwindle and disappear.

Im trying to save OVAS too.

There are so many aquarium clubs that tried to emulate OVAS's success over the past few year, and other hobby clubs too. They saw how we grew and meetings went from 20 to 80, and auctions went from 100 to 500.

If the website is such a pain, break it off from the club and let it be run independantly.  If not , restore it. but as it is now, you've already lost many members to other local sites, and advertisers to other free sites - all to the loss of the club.

[Brent Shaver]

Probably the most referred to site here is RC.  Normally only to channel people to a certain thread that will help them over come what ever issue they may be experiencing.  So I popped over there to take a look, from what I see is a rather large internet enrolment and yet no matter how hard I looked there was no lounge, no classified, it was all about fish, corals and plants and sponsors.   But, most importantly I didn't see any threads that compared to this one or many before this. "I guess there doomed" by all accounts from the threads posted since the changes.

In reality this is about learning about the aquatic hobby area's, as for not being known I was steered here from an admin in Vancouver.  How could someone that is over 3000 miles away know OVAS and suggest I come here to gain the information I need.  They didn't say go to OVAS and buy used items or try and sell your stuff, there was never any mention of they have a lounge so you can discuss everything and anything non aquatic.

So OVAS is known all the way to the west coast (that I am aware of) and yet is being attacked because we are now doing what other sites are doing. Oh and on another note I did notice even RC has a free section and a premium section that guess what, you don't use unless you pay and there very well could be a classifieds located there. 

It is suppose to be summer break to give the exec some time to spend with there families before the fall comes and once again they have to meet regularly, try and please everyone with speakers and spend countless hours to help OVAS as a club grow.

As for the changes, not one of them caused me any hard feelings as I really don't need to log into OVAS to see how the play-offs are going or to buy things.  I rarely buy anything used of importance (here or elsewhere) as there is a risk of failure which in turn could cause major problems.  I know that even new has that risk, but at least it is a much lower percentage and there are warranties in place to help if you catch the problem in time.

Everyone has done nothing but ask for the reason for the changes and Robert took time from his summer to answer each one, what did he get for his time, being called arrogant.

I guess it comes down to this, the people that are truly interested in the hobby and learning will stay with the club and the ones that the exec has to baby-sit over and over will eventually leave and I am not so sure that is a bad thing for the club.  What are bad for the club are these threads?  They have NOTHING to do with the hobby but people wanting something, yet aren't prepared to stand up and offer help.  (Past Exec excluded), and it will take away any potential member as this is more a paten place then a community geared to help each other.

There is now an open position on the Exec because of all of this and for the record a very good Exec left because it wasn't worth it anymore with all this happening.  So I suggest step up and offer to take the position or stop the whining...

It's about fish, corals and plants isn't it??  Let's go back to helping and learning and drop the constant complaining and attacking the Exec because they made a choice, which I might add didn't get much opposition when the elections were offered. 

This thread and ones like it will cause more harm to the club then any decision the Exec make.

The web aspect is important to the club/hobby as stated before due to restrictions on travel, health to name a few which is still here.

[RoxyDog]

I am truly saddened that this is what its all finally come to at OVAS and that a few ill mannered individuals have ruined what I have enjoyed for years.

Yeah.   

[dpatte]

As the site is supposed to be the place where the club describes what its doing over the summer, can someone please list the open positions on the exec that members can apply for.

Thanks

And I appologize for suggesting that the exec is everyone on the exec. I meant the exec collectively. Im aware there are a few people on the exec that disagreed with the decision.

My point on the web is made. I would like to decide if I will run for the exec, to give further votes towards restoration of the website, and give the executive at least one new executive position to represent the website members.

[bergenm]

Probably the most referred to site here is RC.  Normally only to channel people to a certain thread that will help them over come what ever issue they may be experiencing.  So I popped over there to take a look, from what I see is a rather large internet enrolment and yet no matter how hard I looked there was no lounge, no classified, it was all about fish, corals and plants and sponsors.

RC is not a local fish club, trywww.kwas.ca or www.gtaaquaria.com and get back to us...

[Brent Shaver]

Never once did I make reference to local, I said a large on line site that deals with fish, corals and plants.

[mseguin]

This thread has run its course, and I am locking it.