Very Disappointed

[markw]

Why do I get the sinking feeling that this discussion is never going to go away. Every month or so another thread like this pops up. In my opinion it has been discussed to death. The Exec did what they thought was best to better the web-site and thus the club. Not everyone agrees with the decision but it has been done.  If you really don't agree with it you can always run for the exec next time and change it. However, this decision was made before the recent elections and I think everyone involved in the decision that ran for another term on the Exec was re-elected so I think most members agree with the decision made. I think that the best thing for the club at this point is to move on.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

Thanks Jeff...well said. Let's just let it go before more of Exec. call it quits with all this frustration. If you want to keep re-hashing it wait till a week before the next elections!

[Funkmotor]

...we've had to call the police on several occasions to deal with death threats...

If you've received death threats and the Police were called, surely whoever made them would have at least received a visit from the Police, yes?  Their forum account would be banned, yes?

And +1 to 93GT - If help is needed moderating the forum, then get some help.  Ask for submissions or simply pick some users/members that you feel can be trusted and ask them if they want to do it.  I think 10 would be a good number.  I get the sense that it's felt only the Exec or the Webmaster can be trusted to moderate, or perhaps trusted at all, but nothing could be further from the truth.  If you have a Mod that steps out of line, then they aren't a Mod any more.  Easy.

The OVAS forum is a vibrant, wonderful thing.  To me, it is the online embodiment of the club.  I support the club to support the forum, as meetings of any sort don't generally interest me.  Don't forget about me and the others like me when you feel that this website is a nuisance.  I would say that attendance of this forum on a daily basis far outstrips attendance of just about any in-person meeting ever held by OVAS.  I believe I have no less a sense of community or participation than anyone else, and in this I feel that those like me aren't getting the respect we deserve.

If you have abusive users, ban them.  People report stuff for stupid reasons or because they have an axe to grind, ban them.  People post advertisements, ban them.  Ad hominem attacks, ban.  It's real easy.

5 days on first offence, a month on second offence, permanent on third.  It's pretty simple, and most forums on the Interwebs work something like that.  Someone that's banned shows up again with a new name, ban them again.  Eventually most people will get the message, though you will always have troublemakers that will not - such is the price of presumed anonymity.

I will conclude by saying that implementing measures meant to take things "back to the good ol' days" will only alienate people.  Times change and people's needs change, and if anything is to survive change it must adapt rather than resist.  It is better for a branch to bend in the wind than to resist it and break.

If you made it to here, thanks for reading.

[Tyler.L]

Well done Daryl, never knew you could write so well, kinda like you're smart or something......

I agree with daryl and I am one of those people but I dont have a membership or support the club because i dont think it fits my needs. (saltwater) i've said it before we dont get the attention needed so i will not support something that doesnt support me.

[cdylnicki]

As a new member, I have a few observations (not to open another can of worms):

Why not allow members to make the vote on whether or not the classifieds should be open to non-members?  Or open the sales to club members for 24 hours first before offering it to the rest of the forum members.  I came to this site looking for friends, but now feel like I'm a kid whose parents are going through a divorce (not to offend anyone divorced). 

Tyler.L: Why not create a branch in meetings to involve more salt-water oriented members?  If you have any ideas on how to run these I would be very interested in helping.  I will gladly support you as a club member(me) if you are willing to take some action to make this club more positive and member friendly (I am not implying that it is not friendly or positive or that you are negative...)

I agree with Funkmotor regarding the ban on abusive members.  If someone kept coming into my home to yell obscene or obnoxious comments I would no longer answer the door.  If they tried the backdoor, I would still lock them out!   I will offer to help moderate posts if that is what is needed to stop this drama.

I cannot believe someone would stoop so low to send death threats over a fish forum/club.  Maybe they should spend more time watching their tanks and less time being angry at the world. 

I joined here because I wanted to meet some cool people and to talk about my favourite hobby!  Not to be reminded of the high school he-said, she-said comments.  Come on people!  Didn't we grow out of that stage?! (not to offend any high-school individuals who are mature and not petty).

Please let me know what I can do to help make this club user-friendly and to show individuals how positive and calming fish keeping is.  I really really love this hobby.  Fish keeping is a large part of my life, and it really doesn't need to be this dramatic. 

Else if you are looking for the more dramatic option: Change the site to members only.  Allow non-members to view, but not post.  If you choose to become a member, you must provide a working email address (one that cannot be used for multiple accounts). 

I love fish and fish keeping.  I hate drama and people that get cocky when placed in front of a computer monitor. 

I apologize in advance to anyone who may have been offended by this post.  I think this club is wonderful so far and I am very excited to be a member! 

Remember, in life you may not agree with all decisions your partner/boss/kids/prime minister/etc makes.  You must choose your battles.

[mseguin]

Well we are really just going around in circles at this point. I agree that there are downsides to any (or most) decisions an executive can make, as there are upsides as well. We evaluated all the sides, and came to a decision. Some like it, some do not. Such is life. At this  point, we are trying to enjoy the rest of our summer, and personally I am not interested in defending the decision for the rest of the summer. I respect everyone's right to agree or disagree, but that doesn't mean we're going to change our minds without giving it a chance first. If next season's executive feels its in the best interest of the club to change it back, or if the majority of club membership lets us know they want it changed, then it can be looked . But so far, the majority of feedback I have received from club members has been supportive, and that's what I'm going with. Beyond that, I'm not dealing with this issue any more for the rest of the summer, next year's exec can take a look at it if they so desire. The debate has run its course, IMO.

[alongfortheride]

I have a feeling that there is always going to be mixed feelings on this issue.
Why don't we set all OVAS members (whose voice should be heard for how the club is managed by the exec) straight by having a clear online poll.

If we make a post with voters' names remaining hidden (to maintain anonimity), I think it can set this matter to rest.

Of course only club members should be allowed to vote, but if the majority of OVAS's paying members wish to review the changes made to the web-site it should be up for review come fall.
If however, the majority of OVAS's paying members are in agreement with the changes - enough said.

I think at the end of the day, the only way to tell is with an open poll for the OVAS members.

This way there can be no more debating. If the majority of members are in agreement with the changes, then the changes should stand. If the majority of members are in disagreement with the changes, then come September this issue should be brought before the club. But at least the poll numbers will be out there and it will be clear to both sides.

*Just an idea and my humble 2 cents

Trina Parsons
Former OVAS Executive Chairperson

[dpatte]

A poll is a good idea, but i doubt it would be 'scientifically accurate', but I'd be curious none the less. But to make the point clear, from what I now understand, its not just 'do you want the forums restored' but also 'do you have a solution to the moderation problem that precipitated this decision'.

Im sure most want it restored but don;t understand all the moderation issues. I'd like to understand them as well because there may be other solutions to those moderation problems. 

[alongfortheride]

I am sure there will be issues with a poll.
As you said, to be completely accurate will be a problem. It will be hard to convince people to vote and some may not.
But, some may and it may be enough to set this topic at bay.

Either it is something that the majority of the membership argree with or the majority of the membership are unhappy with the changes to the online forum. From there, if the majority of members would like to see re-instatement of one or both forums, I think it would be important to have an in-person meeting to discuss the issue further to arrive at the moderation/other issues which are important.

But without seeing some data (even if slightly flawed), we are just talking in circles, some saying they are unhappy and others saying they are satified with the decision the executive made and it is hard to gauge which is the majority - which is how the club should gauge its actions.

[az]

I agree also IMO classified should be open to all.

However, REPEAT breeders and fraggers could start paying some sort of vendor fee, which should be higher than a $20 membership fee. I mean regular people dont just breed species of cichlids or setup frag tanks for fun, maybe a new vendor forum for those who do it 'on the side', so its fair to us.

[Brine]

we've had to call the police on several occasions to deal with death threatsligated to cause problems on this site.

Death threats?
Several occasions?
Seriously?
Tell me you are exaggerating.

[Brent Shaver]

Well this type of drama and constant complaining just cost the club an acting VP and upcoming President.

Hope this was worth it.  And over a classified section...

A sad day for sure

[Jeff1192]

Well this type of drama and constant complaining just cost the club an acting VP and upcoming President.

Hope this was worth it.  And over a classified section...

A sad day for sure

Couldn't agree more!

[mseguin]

There have been several threats of violence against either executive or members via the forum over the years, as well as verbal abuse, and the police have been notified of some of those occasions. I wish I was kidding.

[markw]

Death threats?
Several occasions?
Seriously?
Tell me you are exaggerating.

Do you think I have nothing better to do than make this crap up?

[dpatte]

The trouble with all boards is that its VERY easy to misunderstand the seriousness of comments made - and hense its very easy to take offense to something which was nothing more than a normal comment or something that could be interpretted another way. Anyone who uses web boards heavily is certainly aware of times their own comments where taken the wrong way.

Abusive language, when it occurs should simply be deleted and ignored. Some people use certain words 3 times per sentence when speaking and it means nothing - for them using the same words online comes naturally - and means nothing. But before calling police, once should not jump to conclusions. Web posts, like email, can very easily be misunderstood without the context of a persons body language.

Be careful what you post, and try to be understanding if you have been misunderstood.

BTW - all social organmizations have tension, people leaving and coming back and feeling frustrated or angry. Its not just OVAS. But we should all remember that a club is a social organization, and for many members, OVAS is their PRIMARY social organization. A change that contrains peoples social contact can be felt as something quite disturbing.

But a major consideration for members is that running the club is a thankless job. Its alot of work, for no pay. I doubt many members understand how much work it is.

So, if you disagree with what the exec decides, thats ok. It appropriate at all times to express your opinions. But also listen to their issues, and try to propose alternatives. If an issue is contentious, the executive may have to make the reasoning behind their decisions clear. The exec is always interested in improving the club and I'm sure they will be open to suggestions if the membership listens to the issues that constrain them.

And if the exec doesnt listen, or makes arbitrary decisions without any reason, then people are free to vote for a new executive. The club belongs to all its members.

[dan2x38]

I think this thread is not rehashing old issues it is discussing important concerns by members and people over all. As dpatte said often or sometimes posters are misunderstood. He also mentioned body language which in fact is 80% of communication so understanding others onlie can easily be confussing or missing their true intent. With that said I hope this thread is left to continue so people member or not can voice their opinion.

Not to stir things up by no one is responsible for anyone leaving it is freedom of choice. As mentioned there are other concerns besides just clubs. I sat on the executive and had to step down for health reasons. It was a diffcult decision but a necessary one. And yes OVAS issues weighed on those health concerns aggravating them and that was three years ago. So some of this stuff is still present.

Again with that said the issues are whether the majority agree or disagree with the current changes. The cause and effect is suppose to be actions of on line personalities. IMHO debate as long as it is non-abusive shouldn't be considered undesirable. By non-threatening PMs any persons being aggressive or crossing the line or close to the line should be warned to keep things toned down. Anyone being abusive, name calling in any regard should be dealt with promptply with a ban period!

Maybe by activating some non-executive mods. even for certain boards like saltwater folks for that, plant hobbyists for that, etc. That would relieve stress on the exec. over all. It would also leave them less affected by the day to day stuff and could more easily apply their time on how the club is run. This would also leave them less jaded towards day to day issues with the website.

Today whether we like it or not the Web is dominate in our life's. With social networking growing in leaps and bonds any organization not involved in this growth will fall behind. Something to consider could be a secondary committee for just the club's on line presence? It would report directly to the exec. and of course be directly responsible to the club and it's membership.

They would oversee the entire running of the website. Something along this line could relieve much pressure and tension with the executive. In many organizations the exec. is not hands on but deal with running of that organation and relie on managers to handle thos tasks.

Any ways I sure hope this is left unlocked so debate and opinions can continue because it does not seem to be a dead issue with the membership. I see many members psoting pro/con still on these issues. It seems like quite an important thing to discuss. There is the potential of a division running through the middle of things but with open transparent discussion this can be averted. Who wants to see things end up as two sided? No one I believe.

After all this is a club for aquaria and to have fun not politics or power struggles. If open discussion concludes with all sides feeling heard and a possible poll it might just end the debate once and for all!

[RoxyDog]

Abusive language, when it occurs should simply be deleted and ignored. 

Just a note on this one point:  Absolutely NOT.  We, you, anyone, should not have to put up with abusive language.

If you all would like to continue to discuss this matter (or others), it is certainly welcome as long as it remains positive and constructive, which it often does not.  BUT as Matt was trying to state above, you'll need to understand that nothing is going to get changed until September, as the summer is supposed to be time off for OVAS.  Okie dokie? 

[Nyx]

Strictly in regards to the classifieds, correct me if I'm wrong but it is my understanding that non-OVAS members are only prohibited from creating a post in the classifieds section and nothing else. They are fully able to view the classifieds and PM members who have posts in the classifieds, thereby initiating contact with members and participating in purchases and trades. Furthermore, non-members are also fully able to view and participate in the remaining sections of the forum, which most importantly includes help from members and contact with sponsors,  both of which are far better "first contacts" for any perspective member than the classifieds, IMO. The only thing non-members can't do is actually post a "for sale" ad. It just means that being able to post in the classifieds section is a perk for OVAS members, similar to having discounts at some of our sponsors. I'm sorry but I honestly don't see what the problem is with any of that is.

In addition, restricting the classifieds to OVAS members prevents fly-by-night posters who pop in with a 0 post count to sell something, never to be seen again, which is not the purpose of the forum to begin with. That's what Kijiji and Craig's List are for. Having had a few very negative experiences with non-OVAS members selling items in the classifieds, I, for one, am glad that this section has been restricted and hope that it continues to be only for OVAS members. No, it's not a guarantee of positive experiences but it is certainly a step in the right direction.

With regards to the actual moderation of the forum, I have to agree with Dan. There should be a separate non-exec body to deal with the forum, leaving the execs to do what they were actually elected to do. That's not to say that the execs should not have part in the forum or in the moderation of the forum but that it wouldn't be a primary role for them, which would alleviate some of the burden.

[dpatte]

Hi Nyx.

The perks in letting non-members post are:
- that it gives members a chance to find things for sale on their own club website that would otherwise be listed elsewhere. Im sure many members here have benefitted from bargains posted by non-members. I for one have the classified on 'notify' mode and get each new post as it comes in.
- it gives non-members a chance to post their needs which could then be satisified by members.
- it gives the oportunity of those non-members to meet members face to face for the sale, insuring that members have a chance to promote the club to the non-members.
- but most of all, it exhibits that the club is inclusive, not exclusive.

For years Ive been encouraging fly-by-night posters to post on the site - and many have later gone on to become members, because they felt welcome.

I also agree with Dan that a webteam, not a single individual is required for the site moderation.

Finally, social clubs that required physical presence to survive mostly died out in the 80s and 90s. There has been a general trend in collapse for social organizations. The social networking we see now has replaced it, and always succeeded best when it allowed inclusiveness without payment. OVAS can grow as a club with meetings, but I honestly believe that this can only be done by making our web-presence as inclusive as possible.

I believe we should be actively encouraging the 100,000 households in Ottawa/Gatineau with aquariums to be using the OVAS site for aquarium-related sales and purcahses - and in doing so, building the clubs social network, and the other aspects of our club. If we look are very friendly, people will become members.

Giving away traffic to used ottawa, and kijiji and others is lost potential for the club.

Finally, I don't quite get why conversations on the web are blocked between members in the classified, and yet the other forums are open. If a troublemaker or non-member is going to come to the site, he'll cause trouble in any forum, not just the classifieds.

(I guess my point is made - and if others disagree - they are welcome to)

[JetJumper]

The only thing non-members can't do is actually post a "for sale" ad. It just means that being able to post in the classifieds section is a perk for OVAS members, similar to having discounts at some of our sponsors. I'm sorry but I honestly don't see what the problem is with any of that is.

They also can't put an ad saying "Looking for" either, which kinda sucks because there have been some times I have been looking to buy something and don't want to buy a brand new one. I personally don't get any benefit out of signing up for a membership so that is why I don't have one.  

As for moderation, I completely agree.  There needs to be more mods if this is the case that the execs are being over burden.  I have setup forums like this in the past (Mind you the ones I was part of didn't have such as strict rules as here) and the bigger they got the more and more volunteer mods had to be recruited.  I would volunteer myself to mod stuff since I work infront of a computer all day and e-mails get to me pretty much instantaneous.