Notes to the Club

[Jody]

Halloooooooo,
      I read through the forums from time to time, and it seems to me that there is a lot of complaining going on. I don't really understand this, the club offers a great service, the OVAS website, to all members, as well as limited access to non-members. And what do the club executives get for their hard work? Complaint after complaint.  I kind of laugh reading some of the threads, when people finish their posts by saying, I bet the moderators are going to delete/lock this thread. It's kind of like sticking your hand in the fireplace, if you know it is stupid to do, why do it at all?
        For everyone who says that they support the club, and then whines about how they now have to pay to have access to the classified/lounge section, I say, pay up and then have a say about it. I know that not everyone has the time to go to the meetings, and probably quite a few of you don't want to attend. There is nothing that says you must.
       Like many websites out there, OVAS, has the right to decide to make certain problem areas, members only. While there are hundreds of OVAS forum members, there is a much smaller number of OVAS club members (paid members). 
       Yes, OVAS as a club is a not-for profit organization, and besides having a bit of a cushion, does not make any money off of membership and sponsorship. All the funds taken in are used to enhance the club experience for its members. Things paid for by the club include, but are not limited to, speakers – big name speakers often have a fee, plus need to be fed and put up somewhere, and not all will want to stay at a member's place as well as travel expenses;  meeting hall, insurance, books and dvds for the library, club laptop and software, OVAS website and it's maintenance, Christmas parties, BBQs, advertising for the giant auction etc.. To say that the club is trying for a money grab is ridiculous, there would be much better ways to do that, like increase membership from $20 to $25-30 a season or charge a 10% fee from sales on the classifieds, similar to E-Bay, as is done at the mini-auctions. If you are using their service, why not be willing to chip in a bit.
      As far as number of posts counts, this number is completely meaningless. Over the course of 2 hours, I could post 30-40 times if I wanted to, and could argue that each one was a legitimate post, and should count towards post totals. In the end 1000 posts means nothing if there isn't content in them to make them valid. I have known a number of people whose goal was to get the highest number of posts on a given site, and just added valueless replies to every thread and went from 0 to hundreds in a matter of weeks. If you want post counts to mean something, apply them only to threads started. You start a thread, you have a post, you reply to the thread nothing.
      It is complaint like these, that have driven away many former club members ( paid) and forum members (unpaid), including quite a number of executives.  To me, while the website has brought a lot of attention to the club, I find that there is a negative aspect that is associated with it among some, and that there is a number of people who would like to see OVAS sever its ties to the online site.
       Yes, the number of member has jumped thanks to the site, but in the last few years, due to infighting, politics, complaints and just general disagreeable individuals, there has been a decrease in membership, because of the site.
       As it stands, due to issues, there is no longer a president or vp for the 2010-11 season at this point, and if things continue as they are, I seriously doubt that there will be people jumping for the positions.
       Though I have not attended a meeting for several years, and I will be honest, I am not a paid member of the club, I would like to thank all of the execs from the 2009-10 year for all their hard work and for all of the patience they have shown with, many (not all) disrespectful, whiny, complaining forum forum members (you know who you are). I hope that the people who are brave enough to try to fill the positions in the next year are given an easier time, and others save their complaints for issues that actually matter.
          Just remember, OVAS is about fish, aquatic life and the interests associated with them, and not about complaints, sales or classifieds.
       
Sincerely,
Jody

[White Lightning]

I agree with Jody on all points.

I have been a paid member for four years and for the last six months have watched things go to s**t. Pardon my french. (I'm not bilingual)

Considering how much this hobby costs, in the course of a year by having an OVAS membership I probably save anywhere from $100-300 in discounts at LFS's. I don't understand why people wouldn't spend $20 to save throughout the year. I am sure that not everyone experiences the same savings but even if not, look at it this way.....If the club brings in speakers, holds auctions, has meetings, garage sales, BBQ's and all the other get togethers and gatherings, then $20 doesn't seem like a big price to pay to be a part of it. You will spend that same amount going to a movie theatre for a night. Hmmmm..... I am no mathematician but I think I know where I am getting the best bang for my buck.

It is what it is...

[TLe041]

White Lighting, have you thought that maybe it isn't the $20 price that people have a problem with?

For me, it's the principles. I don't agree with the current Executives and their conducts so I will not join the club for that reason. It doesn't matter if the club fees are $1 or $100.

[mseguin]

What principles? And what conduct? Please show me where our conduct has been questionable. Not our opinions, our behaviour.

[Zoe]

Jody you do realize that posting something like this is just re-opening the can of worms, don't you?  I don't particularly agree with the members only classifieds as it seems like OVAS is halfway between a "members only" organization and an "everyone is welcome" type of place, and also because it limits the classifieds that I get to see... But whatever, it's not my club. I don't mind paying $20 as I always end up saving more than that with discounts.

It has been my observation that people on OVAS seem to feel a lot more entitled than anywhere else. No other society/club I'm a member would put up from this kind of complaining (from both sides); everyone just should be happy that their voices are heard and that the "worst" thing about this is a $20/year fee. Everyone is used to getting everything for free online. $20 for the services that OVAS provides really isn't much, although if all you're seeing it is as $20 to use classifieds, I could see how it would be.

OVAS Execs, just leave things as they are if you are confident that the increase in membership sales and ad quality will make up for the decrease in classifieds volume. People will get used to it eventually, and for those who don't, there is kijiji.

[White Lightning]

I am confused on the principle thing....what is the prinicple in this instance?

If I don't have a Costco membership I can't shop there. I wonder if the higher ups at Costco receive a lot of complaints about that policy?

[Jody]

Halloooooooooo,
      I don't see it as opening a can of worms, I see it more as dumping the can out for everyone to see what's inside.
Take a look at the last 5-6 posts in this forum, they are all complaining and whining about the classifieds and having to pay. The can is already open.
        On the OVAS site everyone is welcome, but only members have full access to the benifits of the club, including the classifieds. Sure there will be less posting on the classifieds, and some people will have to post elsewhere, but if it gets rid of some of the issues and moderation headaches, then all the better.
       If people aren't happy with the policies of the club, then they don't have to stick around.
       OVAS isn't about discounts and classifieds, it is about fish and the aquarium hobby. If you like the site, enjoy the people that you meet, and find all kinds of useful information at the meetings, then support your club and pay the $20, enjoy the club and make the club a good experience for everyone involve. Quit the complaining about little things, and just have fun in your hobby like you probably want to. If there is something worth complaining about, then do it, but really just give it up.

Jody

[Jeff1192]

Jody,

Your post is music to my ears. I couldn't agree more.

Jeff

[Zoe]

Take a look at the last 5-6 posts in this forum, they are all complaining and whining about the classifieds and having to pay. The can is already open.

And you just added another one of "those" posts. You've re-opened the can. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure that your positive sentiments are appreciated, but we will be lucky if this thread doesn't degenerate in a re-hashing of everyone's opinion because don't want to be to told to "just give it up" or "leave if you don't like the changes".

I doubt all that many will leave because of this, but the topic will come up periodically whenever someone asks "why can't I post in the classifieds???".  IMO, best to keep any thread on this topic at a minimum.  Complaining about people complaining about the changes isn't helpful.  Your positive sentiments are awesome, but if you don't keep them succinct and somewhat vague, people will get into it again and it's frustrating for those who disagree with the changes and are trying to have their voices heard, for those who are sick of the complaining, the execs, and those like me who are just sick of this topic.

But who knows, maybe just one more thread, and people will get it out of their systems 

Zoe

[RossW]

Please tell me we are not going to debate both sides of this topic again!

[Brine]

Please tell me we are not going to debate both sides of this topic again!

PLEASE! NOOOOOOOOOO

[FishPassion]

Jody you have been president of this club before, I always liked your cool, calm, conservative mannerisms maybe NOW is the time for you to step up and take over this club again. I was quite excited when I heard Charlie was taking over next years role and I do understand he must have his reasons for stepping aside which is not the issue here anyways. This club (and website) have grown over the years and I'm positive that the "club" members old and new have concerns over this "new" issue that yet again risen.

Its not the paying members complaining I think we just want an end to it all whatever the outcome is. So the classifieds are a morgue, the paying membership isn't complaining and you are right Jody these complaints are driving away paying members that have been devoted the club from as long as days to years of membership. Yes that "can" is allready open Jody your right, was there ever a complaint about that in years gone by not that I can remember empty the can and lets get on with it. Lets face it honestly, people want to advertise here on OVAS because its "the" aquatic site of the area to go to.

So execs (both past and present) decide and carry on with your decision, your paying members that have and will support the club admire your voluntary devotion that each and every one of you have taken to provide us with all that you have offered to the club over the years...

Klaus

[JetJumper]

Its not the paying members complaining

Sorry, but this statement is false.  There have been several paying members complaining as well.  Check out the threads if they are still there, you will see there are members complaining.

[robt18]

You're always going to have some unhappy people, but the majority of the members, many of whom I have talked to via PM and in person recently, just want this to be over with. I'd like to wake up in the morning, check OVAS.ca and find some posts about an interesting fish someone has just bred, pictures of a new tank build and some questions about aquatic related problems.

The executive is trying to move away from the idea that OVAS is about discounts or being cheap. They don't want people to join strictly for the reason that their OVAS card will save them 10% at sponsors, or because that allows them to post ads on the site. If you do save, which you likely will, then that's great, but you're probably saving money because you're spending a fair amount on a generally expensive hobby to maintain. However the point of the membership is to support the club financially so that it can continue to support you. OVAS is a wonderful resource and does a great job for its members, but it does have several expenses that must be covered in order to A) keep the club functioning, and B) Continue to provide the club with speakers and new materials.

The whole 'cash grab' idea that has been thrown around is completely invalid because there are no profiting parties. The executive are not paid, CAOAC does not take a percentage cut of revenues, and no single person or group gains monetarily if OVAS revenues are increased. All money taken in by OVAS is reinvested into the club, so every time a membership is purchased the club gets a little better.

As a sponsor, we would also like to recognize the fact that our goal is not strictly to make things cheaper for members. We sponsor the forum so that OVAS can help preserve and promote the fish keeping hobby. The discounts offered are simply an added bonus. If all you want to do is buy a membership to save 10% in sponsors' stores, then that is completely within your rights to do. However, our reason for sponsorship is because we support the ideals of the club and would like to see them maintained. I'm sure by now everyone is sick of the 4 goals of OVAS being posted, so I'll refrain from it.

In a last word, please stop the complaints about the club because the executive is going to leave (has already started) and with no one to run the club there will be no club. If you don't like this one there are many others around that would love for you to join. If you don't want to pay for a membership, ok, still please use our site because by posting your aquatic related stories, questions and experiences, you too are helping advance the fish keeping hobby. However the club has its rules, and everyone, member or not, must follow the rules that pertain to them.

Rob

[bergenm]

You're always going to have some unhappy people, but the majority of the members, many of whom I have talked to via PM and in person recently, just want this to be over with.

I think everyone want this to be over with, but that does not mean everyone (including all paying members) are in favour of the changes.

Personally, I think the club has made a mistake in how they have handled this situation and I feel it will hurt the club more in the long run than any of this 'complaining'. This site needs to be moderated not restricted...

I do not think this is a 'cash grab' or that the execs acted without the clubs best interest in mind and I realize that the changes were in response to the actions and abuses of some of the members.

I also appreciate the efforts that the execs made and continue to make, and am disappointed by the recent events and the loss of next years execs, but I still do not agree with the changes

I think this issue should be dropped for now, but once we have a new exec and some pre- and post- change statistics, it need to be reviewed.

Maybe some of our sister clubs could be questioned as to how they operated with more members and higher activity but without these restrictions in place and no in-fighting. 

Michael

[Fishnut]

This reminds me so much of what the competition bureau is wanting to do to my industry.   The big difference is that there are lawyers advising members of my organization on appropriate conduct with that subject matter because they don't want things to be made worse.

I just hate the exec trashing and money grab accusations...and I also want it to stop.

Maybe some of our sister clubs could be questioned as to how they operated with more members and higher activity but without these restrictions in place and no in-fighting. 

Michael

I talked to the people at KWAS...who's forum rules are the base for our new ones...and they don't put up with ANYTHING.  They also have a members only classifieds...I think.  I bet if they were the ones moderating this site, there would be several people banned and entire threads deleted before they had more than a couple of replies.  I'm not criticizing the moderating on this forum at all, but I think other sites have much less tolerance for people voicing things publicly and saying such ridiculous things.  They encourage PM's.

[JetJumper]

KWAS's classifieds are available to all registered members of the forum.  No payment required. 

[charlie]

KWAS's classifieds are available to all registered members of the forum.  No payment required. 

That is quite true, but as a side note, KWAS classifieds is not the main focus of their forum .
Just thought it should be noted  now back to my life 

[bergenm]

KWAS classifieds is not the main focus of their forum .

Errol, I completely agree, the classified should not be the main focus. The question is how do you achieve that - by restricting the classifieds or growing the rest of the forum...

P.S. Good to hear from you...

[charlie]

Errol, I completely agree, the classified should not be the main focus. The question is how do you achieve that - by restricting the classifieds or growing the rest of the forum...

P.S. Good to hear from you...

Hi Michael, as much as i would like to engage in a conversation with you on this subject, i have made the personal choice not to do so on this forum.
You will hear from me from time to time.
Errol