trouble with water parameter readings?

[motoman]

I'm a bit confused by my hardness test kit. I'll try and explain.

Ok so here are my water parameters:

Out of tap after sitting overnight 12+hrs in a pail (by-passing the softner):
GH:440
KH:110
PH:7.6+ (that's as high as my indicator shows)

Out of tank which is currently 1/2 RO and 1/2 the above tap water. Has about 1 - 1.5" of peat on the bottom then 1 - 1.5 " of cleaned pool sand on top of that:
GH:200
KH:280
PH: 7.0

I'm not sure about the GH and KH values because the back of the test booklet says to multiply the number of drops added by 20 (for GH) and 10 (for KH) but then it has a conversion table with five different formulas. One for dH or gH, one for Clark H, one for fH, and one for hardness degrees, and the last one for mEq/L.
Which one should I be using. The booklets also has the regular ppm or mg/L guidelines of 0-60, 61-100, 101-200, 200+
According to that my water is hard as nails! I mean 440ppm for GH seems off the charts? My test kit is about a year old and I seem to remember getting similar results when I first used it. Am I reading it wrong? I guess I could bring in a sample and get it tested at the LFS to tell for sure.
If we're using a water softner at home would it be wise to just use that water instead of getting from the tap that by passes the softner? Any thoughts here?

[Julie]

Your water seems very hard, especially GH at about 27.   Your pipes must have seriously corroded before the softener was installed.
Mine is 18 at the highest.
Your KH sounds reasonable around 6 out of the tap, but I'm a bit confused that mixed with ro it goes up.
Water softener is not suitable for fish.  If I need for emergency reasons some water from the softener I see my fish producing more slime coat than usual.  I bypass mine and go straight from the well.  After degassing my PH goes up about 0.5.
Try aerating the water overnight and you'll get an accurate PH reading with a High PH kit.

Julie

[motoman]

Hey thanks for the response. Yeah I know that my values seem out to lunch, I'm not sure why though. So you just multiplied the ppm by 0.056 to get the GH degrees and KH degrees right? If so that answers that question. I'm going to try and get a sample of water from town tonight and test that as well. I'll re-test my tap water tonight and post the results. I don't think the pipes are that bad. Our house is only 12 years old and all the piping is copper. Then again I'm not really sure. One of the water tanks is pretty old but I'm not sure if that is a problem? I know that our well isn't very deep 15-20 ft because the water table in our area is very high. I've never used the water out of the softner either, I've been spending money on R/O water for the past year and getting out of the by pass tap.
Think apisto's would get used to the water? I'm ok with mixing it if need be but if they will do fine in the water out of the tap then that would be better.

[Julie]

I keep my Discos in GH 15, Ph 7.5 -8.0  They spawn, they're happy - only time I adjust is when I want the eggs to hatch, I add some peat to my AC.  I have never had any bacterial problems with my fish.  The irony here is I haven't been able to keep guppies alive lately, which are harder water fish.
Contrary to popular belief, this works - just remember the hybrids of today are very far removed from the Amazon.

Julie

[motoman]

Oh I fogot to add something to my parameters. Please check again.

[Julie]

/17.9
I've gone to the dark side and added some african dwarf butterflies from west africa which aren't the real alkaline type.
They are doing fine so far, colouring up nicely.  
I'm sure apistos will do fine, just aerate your well water first so there are no big ph swings and forget about the ro.

Julie

[gvv]

You are right - Don't use softener for aquariums, it just trying to replace one ions in your water with other, but really do not lower them.

[BigDaddy]

/17.9
I've gone to the dark side and added some african dwarf butterflies from west africa which aren't the real alkaline type.
They are doing fine so far, colouring up nicely.  
I'm sure apistos will do fine, just aerate your well water first so there are no big ph swings and forget about the ro.

Julie

The only apistos I would put in that water without R/O are cacs and borellii... and even then, you'll not get the 3 year life span out of 'em.

I would reconsider apistos unless you are committed to using R/O.

[Julie]

/17.9
I've gone to the dark side and added some african dwarf butterflies from west africa which aren't the real alkaline type.
They are doing fine so far, colouring up nicely.  
I'm sure apistos will do fine, just aerate your well water first so there are no big ph swings and forget about the ro.

Julie

The only apistos I would put in that water without R/O are cacs and borellii... and even then, you'll not get the 3 year life span out of 'em.

I would reconsider apistos unless you are committed to using R/O.

What are you basing your conclusion on?
Are you using r/o for your south americans?

Julie

[gvv]

BTW, by aerating your water you are increasing KH, which is not good for apistos. I would suggest CO2.

[Julie]

The water will be aerated in the tank by filtration - the ph will then swing in the tank itself.
Just want to add that explains why the tank water KH is higher than the tap water kh.
Julie

[gvv]

With this value of KH there should not be any pH swing at all. But the question is why this high value appear? I can see that GH is halved, and I can expect this, but why KH is increased? I can only suggest that water softner is responsible, as it usually
removes calcium and magnesium ions and replaces them with sodium ions. Fish that prefer soft water don't like sodium either.
My suggestion is try to check tap water that is not going through the softner and use it with you RO/DI water. In my case it works perfectly, as I have only 70 ppm from tap (GH=4dH), and in your I'm not sure
Regards

[Julie]

Well water reacts differently than city water.
This would be a good topic for a meeting with a speaker specialized in this area.

Julie

[motoman]

The well water that I'm using is not going through the softner. I'm getting it from our pump/tank before it goes through the softner. I'm not sure what is going on? This water thing is so frustrating right now. I'm going to do some tests tonight and tomorrow.

[Julie]

My well water will degass right in the tank if not aerated previously.
It's supersaturated with gases(specifically c02) - with aeration from an aquaclear flow or canister flow in the tank the c02 is forced out, the PH goes up and the KH increases.  
Anyways this is what happens in my tank.

Found some links:
//www.solodvds.com/tropical-fish/fish_tank_water.htm
www.atlantech.ca/articles/Dissolved%20Gases%20in%20Aquaculture.PDF

Julie

[BigDaddy]

BTW, by aerating your water you are increasing KH, which is not good for apistos. I would suggest CO2.

Aerating water will have absolutely no impact on kH.  kH is a measurement of carbonate hardness.  Increasing kH means adding more carbonate to the water.  Air pumps don't add carbonates.

Now... aerating will INCREASE pH.  Most water out of the tap is full of CO2.  By aerating, you outgas the CO2, causing an increase in the pH of the water.  kH, though, should remain stable (again because you haven't done anything to the carbonate buffers).

[BigDaddy]

/17.9
I've gone to the dark side and added some african dwarf butterflies from west africa which aren't the real alkaline type.
They are doing fine so far, colouring up nicely.  
I'm sure apistos will do fine, just aerate your well water first so there are no big ph swings and forget about the ro.

Julie

The only apistos I would put in that water without R/O are cacs and borellii... and even then, you'll not get the 3 year life span out of 'em.

I would reconsider apistos unless you are committed to using R/O.

What are you basing your conclusion on?
Are you using r/o for your south americans?

Julie

My tap water is gH 2 and kH 1.  I don't use R/O because I don't need it.

But the water in question has gH and kH values in the 'teens and twenties.  Definately not water appropriate for South American dwarf cichlids.  I personally wouldn't put apistos in a tank with anything more than 6 or 7 gH and kH... and even that would only be the very tolerant species.

[gvv]

Aerating water will have absolutely no impact on kH.

It decrease the KH value, as aerating will increase surface turbulence driving off carbon dioxide (CO2).

Regards

[zapisto]

/17.9
I've gone to the dark side and added some african dwarf butterflies from west africa which aren't the real alkaline type.
They are doing fine so far, colouring up nicely.  
I'm sure apistos will do fine, just aerate your well water first so there are no big ph swings and forget about the ro.

Julie

The only apistos I would put in that water without R/O are cacs and borellii... and even then, you'll not get the 3 year life span out of 'em.

I would reconsider apistos unless you are committed to using R/O.

What are you basing your conclusion on?
Are you using r/o for your south americans?

Julie

it is prooven by notarius aquarist.
they will do fine when well acclimate, and will even spanw sometimes , but the eggs will have real difficulties to hatch
and sometimes they will just die , depend of the specimen.

the way the fish reject their urine is very different in alcaline or acidiq water.
fish reject urine by two way, normaly by the urine tub or by the gills depend on wich PH they are they one method more than an other.

the hard water fish has a urinate system less develloper than the acidiq water fish therfore when you put a hard water fish in acid water, the fish (when well acclimatate) will use the urinate system more than the gills (due to omotique pressure control) but will not be able to eliminate all the subtance because of the atrophy of this orgasm who is not suppose to work at this rate.
then result of a small acculation of toxine time to time who at the end will kills the fish.

i can explain the same for the inverse.

it is why ph shock will most of the time kill the fish when the change is to drastic the fish dont have time to start or restart the other system properly and die .

hoep my explanation is clear  :roll:

[motoman]

I had no idea about that! Ok so I'm going to test water from my well again and then some other sources of free water. I may have to make some pit stops on my home from work every week to get my jugs filled at my mom's or friend's house if I want to keep apistos. Some one mentioned african cichlids and shell dwellers could be suitable for my water?