trouble with water parameter readings?

[BigDaddy]

Aerating water will have absolutely no impact on kH.

It decrease the KH value, as aerating will increase surface turbulence driving off carbon dioxide (CO2).

Regards

Aeration increases surface turbulance, which drives off CO2 yes.  But what you are doing is removing carbonic acid from the water, which INCREASES pH.

Removing carbonic acid from the water should not impact kH.

Here's the relationship between CO2, pH and kH.

kH remains constant.  What fluctuates is CO2 and pH.  Add CO2, and pH will decrease.  Remove CO2 and pH will increase.

kH is a measurement of carbonates and bicarbonates.

CO2 dissolved in water is H2CO3.  Yes, CO3 is a carbonate.  However, when you outgas carbon dioxide in water what happens?  You pH rises.  That means that hydrogen ions are becoming less concentrated in the water.  So, the "H" in H2CO3 is being stripped from the water.  Guess what stays behind?  CO3, carbonate ions.

It's still early... so if I made a glaring error here somewhere... please let me know.

[gvv]

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/alkalinity.html

Regards

[BigDaddy]

http://www.thekrib.com/Plants/CO2/alkalinity.html

Regards

Yup.. I'm very familiar with those articles... and no where in them does it say that outgasing CO2 lowers kH values.

Here's a common situation:

Aquarist has a CO2 injected tank.  He injects 25ppm of CO2 in his tank during daylight hours.  At night, he turns off CO2 injection.  CO2 outgases during the night, returning CO2 levels to atmospheric levels (under 5ppm).

Next day, aquarist injects CO2 again... etc... etc... etc...

Under the "outgasing lowers kH" theory, none of us who have planted, CO2 injected tanks should have any kH left in our tanks, causing massive pH swings and huge fish mortalities.     :lol:

This is simply not the case.  I turn off my CO2 every night.  Every day, my kH is 2 degrees.  Every night my kH is 2 degrees.  Injecting and outgassing CO2 does not affect the kH reading in my tank.

[Julie]

J'essaie parler en francais pour zap.  J'ai les Discus qui sont a peu pres 3 annee maintenant qui habite dans mon eau.   Je pense que l'age du mort pour discus est 6 ans.

Since this is motomans post on water parameters - my discus are doing quite well in my hard water.  I believe the habitat is similar for apistos in nature.

Julie

[BigDaddy]

Well... lets just say this:

You can keep a goldfish in a 2 gallon bowl too.

Simply put... apistos prefer soft water.  You can keep apistos in hard water...but see example above   :wink:

[Julie]

No kidding....
Fish that spawn on a regular basis are by no means suffering bd.
These conclusions being made are based on opinion which by no means should be the "only way"

Julie

[BigDaddy]

Julie.. I modified my post a bit.. didn't want it to read that you were improperly keeping discus.

Most discus breeders will tell you keeping discus in "harder" water isn't an issue.  You won't hear that same comment from apisto breeders.... that's the point I was trying to make.

[zapisto]

J'essaie parler en francais pour zap.  J'ai les Discus qui sont a peu pres 3 annee maintenant qui habite dans mon eau.   Je pense que l'age du mort pour discus est 6 ans.

Since this is motomans post on water parameters - my discus are doing quite well in my hard water.  I believe the habitat is similar for apistos in nature.

Julie

julie thanks for the effort that show me a lot of stuff
definitely want to meet you perhaps next OVAS giant aunction.
i am also in ottawa time to time for work.
but as i say nothing in the nature follow always rules , i am sure you will be agree with me.
that said , your discus and some other case are the usual exception who will confirm the general rules.

only dissection and futur will tell us if your discus have suffer that alkalinity but i am pretty sure they are doing fine and you take care of them very well.

i just dont want motomans go in this direction thinking, he does the rigth things, he can go to this direction thinking it is possible, yes i have no prob with that your exemple show that, it is possible.

[motoman]

Ok so I've come up with a solution to my H2O issues. I park downtown and the garage has a wash bay for your car so I'm just going to start using the city water instead of any of my tap water. I took a sample of our water in to Big Al's last night and the hardness, KH and PH were all above the indicators on their little strips. So in the best interest of my fish I'm just going to fill up my jugs every Thurs of Fri and then do my water changes. I did one yesterday and now my tank readings are much better.

GH = 1.1 degrees assuming (1 drop of test solution = 20ppm then divide that by 17.9 - it took only 1 drop to change colour)
KH = 2.7 degrees assuming (1 drop = 10 ppm then divide by 17.9 - it took 4 or 5 drops to change colour to full yellow)
PH = 7.2

The water is soft, free and readily available not only at my parking but at family and friends places too.
Anyhoo my fish should be much happier once I slowly start using that water in my 30 gal tank too. I obviously can't change all my water in my 30 gal to match the conditions of my new 20 gal soon to be apisto tank or they will be in major stress so I'll just change a bit (thinking 10%) every week and keep an eye on the readings and the fish.
Thanks for all the info and help though.

[zapisto]

that more suitable for A. cacs and A. borelli (and some other but with less color and hardy to find)

but again  you are stuck with carrying water until you change the pops of the tanks ... are you sure it is what you want ?

[pegasus]

Bonjour Julie,
Please don't tell anyone, I've been keeping a trio of Apisto with my Africans. They are doing well but it will be a miracle if they spawn.

[Julie]

:shock:  Shame, shame, shame on you.

Actually you answered my question about keeping an apisto with african dwarfs.

Merci, Salut!!
Julie

[zapisto]

hey pegasus shame on you hehehe
what type of apisto ?
this little fish will alsways surprise me hehehe

[motoman]

Yeah I know I will be lugging water every week but I don't mind. I just fill my two jugs toss them in the car when I leave my parking spot and head home. No biggie for me. I'll do that until I get a really big tank and then I'll think about changing habitats and species I guess. Thanks for all the help folks. I'll post pics when I get a chance.

[pegasus]

They are Tim's orange flame. They did not like the peacocks & C44 but are now with leleupi, brichardi and demasoni. They are eating aggressively and growing but as soon as they would not show up for their meal, I'll know it's time to move them to a proper home.

[pegasus]

:shock:  Shame, shame, shame on you.

Actually you answered my question about keeping an apisto with african dwarfs.

Merci, Salut!!
Julie

Yes I can take all the SHAME. :oops:

African dwarfs? Maybe... but not in a breeding tank. They would be torn apart. :cry:

[BigDaddy]

Yeah I know I will be lugging water every week but I don't mind. I just fill my two jugs toss them in the car when I leave my parking spot and head home. No biggie for me. I'll do that until I get a really big tank and then I'll think about changing habitats and species I guess. Thanks for all the help folks. I'll post pics when I get a chance.

motoman, you have an R/O unit I presume... since you were mixing half R/O and half tap.

Can you do this for me?  Take your tap water (bypass softener) and put it in a glass bowl.  Let it sit overnight.
Then test your kH, gH and pH.

Do the same with the straight r/o water (this will help us see if the R/O unit is working effectively.

Then do it again with a mix of 50/50 tap and r/o

I'm willing to bet something in your tank is screwing up the water chemistry.  Do this test and we'll know for sure.

I'd hate to have you lugging around water when you have the tools at your disposal to make for a happy apisto experience.

[motoman]

Ok I can do the tests again. I know that the R/O water is good. I was getting it from Loblaws and Home hard but was worried so I tested it and it came back as 0 GH, O KH and 7.0 or 7.2 ph.
I will test my tank again tonight as well as my well water. I kept them in a plastic pail overnight last time but I'll use a glass bowl this time if you think it will make a difference. I'll post results on Saturday since I'm not home tonight.