Endangered fish

[Shouganai]

Matt is correct here. Couple what he said with the fact that is is very difficult to tell people in developing countries who just want to make enough to support their families and have a decent way of life, that we must 'conserve' the land and creatures they want to farm or otherwise exploit for reasons they cannot comprehend (Western interests, intrinsic value, biodiversity, etc), and you have a VERY sticky situation.

[mseguin]

And that's why the fish trade can actually be a good thing for conservation. It gives local diversity a monetary value to the governments and the local people.

[Shouganai]

That is, providing the locals actually GET any of the money, and its not just some guy from like Mirdo going there and stealing them all himself and pocketing the cash.

[PaleoFishGirl]

I'm so glad this topic came up.  I have always had strong reservations about buying wild-caught fishes.  IMHO there is really no need for Joe Aquarist to own and raise wild-caughts, as the average life span of a hobby fish bought in a LFS is disturbingly low due to lack of knowledge on the part of the purchaser.

Present company excluded, of course.  I can see the benefits of experienced aquarists owning and especially breeding wild-caughts, in some way preserving habitat for fishes that may otherwise be/become extinct.  It just bothers me that any- and everyone has the opportunity to buy these fishes, because that just increases the demand.  If we stop buying wild caught fishes, the demand will decrease.

That being said, thanks Matt for the great list.  I was not surprised to see rainbowfishes on there, though I was under the assumption that most of the rainbows you buy at the LFS were courtesy of local breeders (and hope this is the case).

For those of you considering breeding endangered/extinct fishes and then 'distributing' them to new habitats, please do not ever do this as it will destroy the already existing environmental balance.  Introduced species are never a good idea (case & point: Cave & Basin Hot Springs in Banff, AB and the subsequent extinction of the Banff Longnose Dace).

[mseguin]

Most of the rainbows seen in LFS are bred in captivity, but some of the rarer ones are probably sometimes wild.

[maitre007]

Isn't it the same thing with Victorian Lake cichlids.  They are bred in pond since they are quite hardy fishes.  

I agree that climate change is not the cause of the habitant with the Victorian Lake but accepting Bush view on it is a very dangereous slippery slope to the other causes that are causing the fragmentation of the population of the wild species.

And thus creating a DNA crash which is the greatest danger facing the wild tiger population.  Tigers have no problem reproducing.  In fact, the zoo in America often killed the baby tigers due to strict protection law involving trade of the tiger.

Sometimes people advocating conservationalism to monitor the trade of the rainbows seen in LFS.  

I do not know if some people saw the movie about wild parrots in San Franscico that was playing at the Bytowne cinema.  However in the movie, they interviewed city coucilman that stated he had received calls from animal rights group advocating the killing of the species because they were non native to the land.

[Shouganai]

I did see the movie about the feral parrots, and I really enjoyed it. Being a conservationist myself, I can totally understand where people who want the birds to be eliminated are coming from. But at the same time, I am torn. There are cases where intentially or accidentally introduced species can be harmless or have a barely noticeable effect on an ecosystem. Studies are even starting to show that some invasive species aren't doing quite as much harm as everyone thinks. It just seems like in a lot of cases, its just a knee-jerk reaction from people to want invasive species eradicated at all costs. I'm not saying its a good thing, just that it might not be as bad as everyone thinks it is all the time.

If you think about San Francisco, its not exactly a 'natural' habitat, untouched by man. Man has HEAVILY modified it, and willingly allowed species to invade and push out native plants and animals. Stray cats are an example, as well as numerous bird species such as starlings, AND all of the non-native plant species planted in the area. The only reason the parrots can survive there is because of all the non-native plants that they need to feed off of. I really think cities like san fran have bigger concerns than a couple small companies of parrots. Besides, they provide sustenance for the local raptors, which is a good thing.

[pegasus]

Their is hope.
A few SA countries are thinking of closing dowm the exportation of their wild endemic species, only tank raised fish would be allowed to be sold.

For good reading on these subjects get your hands on two NG dedicated issues:
September 2004 : Global Warning
November  2004  : Was Darwin Wrong?

A 2001 american poll showed that 45% of the Americans reject the evolutionary theory. Are these 45% also saying that the global warming is also an act of God? (NG Nov 2004 page 6)

[kennyman]

When I took a course on "Nature as a Human Construct" at the UOG it was repeatedly stressed that humnas ARE a part of the natural world and although we do altar our surroundings sevearly our actions can still be considered natural . . .  

Also towards the parrot thing; There is a huge difference between Presevation and Consevation.

Thanyou for converting that file format, now I can read the document!  Good luck with the committy guys, I think that can make a difference. The industry, even socioty,  has shown it will change when preasure is brought to bare

[mseguin]

Gloabal warming is very controversial, since its been shown that warming has been taking place for a couple thousand years. Obviously, we have accelerated it a bit, but it makes you wonder how much is natural? Personally, I think animals would be able to cope with the climate change if we weren't also tearing apart their habitats and polluting.

[PaleoFishGirl]

~99.9% of all species that have ever existed are extinct.  Extinction is a fact of life and normally occurs at a rate somewhere between 1 species per year and 1 species per 10 years.  Having said that, current extinction rates are estimated at 27000 species per year! I would say that, yes, humans have 'something' to do with it.

As for global warming, we are currently in an interglacial period (ever since the retreat of the last ice age ~10500 years ago).  Stick around long enough (a few thousand years at least) and you may see North America once again covered in a couple of kilometres of ice :lol:  Though industrial emissions, etc. do play some small part, much of the process is indeed natural.

[dpatte]

almost every serious atmosphere scientist in the world believes in global warming and believes that human acctivity is the major contributing force.
even  the head of the national science foundation - the top science advisory board to the Usa governmment has testified that the evidence is in and global warming is a fact. he too is an atmosphere scientist. but this may be off topic

[PaleoFishGirl]

OK so nevermind the Leipzig Declaration.

[kennyman]

I just read that thing. It was quite a statement, not one to that will forestall the inevitable equilibrium factors I see approaching

[mseguin]

Just a head's up. We got a notice recently at BA from the government saying that a few fish have been declared illegal to own in Canada as they are invasive species. The only really notable species were "All species of snakeheads". So no more snakeheads for us unfortunately.

[Mettle]

Haven't snakeheads been illegal for a while, though?

[valiko]

I think they were illegal in the states not here.

[mseguin]

As far as I know they weren't illegal in canda yet. We've had them within the last 6 months.

[Mettle]

This is something I got from the Piranha Fury forums:

In Ontario Canada as of April 22, 2004.
4 species of carps, all 28 species of snakeheads, two species of goby, GloFish, and TK-Fish are illegal under the Fish and Wildlife Conservation Act (FWCA).

Four species of invasive carps (Grass carp, Ctenopharyngodon idella; Bighead carp, Hypophthalmichthys nobilis; Silver carp, Hypophthalmichthys molitrix; and Black carp, Mylopharyngodon piceus)

All 28 species of snakheads

Two species of freshwater goby (Round goby, Neogobius melanstomus, and tubenose goby, Proterorhinus marmoratus)

Also Bio-engineered zebra danio fish (sold as 'GloFish) and genetically modified Rice fish (sold as 'TK-Fish)

Link to Information on Glofish and TK-Fish

Link for information on Carps, Snakeheads, and Gobys

[jdx]

I think all snakeheads have been banned as invasive species in Ontario mainly under the pressure from US, there is no way that snakeheads(except Northern snakehead) can survive Canadian winter, some Americans came to Canada and smuggled their snakeheads. I think they are still legal in Quebec, I have seen red snakeheads for sell in Montreal frequently.