New setup... questions

[bizfromqc]

Hi everyone,

This is my 20G High cycling now. Added 5 zebra danios and dosed NutraFin Cycle (3 days in a row as outlined on the bottle) to get the process started.

I got a couple of plants that I just put there because I don't know where and how I'll layout the tank. I now realize that my plant choices might not have been the best given the light I have on the tank now.

This is my first go at keeping plants so any and all pointers will be greatly appreciated. I ditched the stock (15W) fluorescent strip that was with the tank (an old Hagen) and now using these 2 Home Depot pendant lights with Philips 23W 6500k 1600 lumens light in each over a plexi (soon to be glass) top. I also plan to add a DIY CO2 (2x 2L bottles) in the coming days.


I've read and read and re-read a lot of forum posts and websites about plants and their requirements but I'm still a little lost with the whole process.

My questions are the following:

1) Will this be enough light? (2 x Philips 23W CFL 6500k @ 1600 lumens each)?
2) Will CO2 do any good or I shouldn't even bother with my setup?
3) I plan to keep the tank around 26 degrees (eventually want to keep apistos in there), is this OK?
4) I'm using CaribSea Kon Tiki substrate, will I need ferts as well?

I know the "watts per gallon" is not a golden rule but according to it, I'd be at 2.3W/G (I read that's enough to keep a good variety of plants). On the flip side, according to the Rexx's guide here: http://www.rexgrigg.com/mlt.html, my LSI (Lumens per square inch) is not even enough to be considered "low light" (20G high is 24in x 12in for 288 sq. in, 3200 lumens / 288 == 11.1 LSI).

I know it's a lot of questions for one post but as I said earlier, I'm a little lost with the conflicting and sometimes complex information out there about successfully keeping plants.

FYI, the Windelov Fern will go on a piece of driftwood as soon as its ready, right now its roots are covered by the gravel and it shouldn't)

[pm]

I ran 2x23w and 2x13w spiral CFL bulbs on a 25 gal and I grew quite a bit.  I too did DIY CO2.

The best source of information I have found for CFL bulbs is http://www.plantedtank.net/forums/lighting/85667-par-data-spiral-power-saver-bulbs.html.  The charts there should be able to help with your PAR for the distance to the substrate.  My understanding is 40-50 PAR is the sweet spot.

[bizfromqc]

I'll check out the link, thank you.

[Peekay]

It's so easy to get sucked into the 'what you need' mentality.  In my experience, if you start simply, it's easy to add as you learn.  Charlie used a 'gas pedal' analogy for plants that really resonated with me... if you add lots of light, lots of variables (ferts/co2), and high needs plants, you're learning to drive in a ferrari with the pedal to the metal!  When something goes wrong, you're going to end up on your roof in the ditch and you're not going to have any real idea what happened!

Start with the light you have, the plants you have, and wait.  See how they do.  See how constant you can get your water quality.  See if you keep your fish alive.  THEN start tweaking things, adding things, changing things one at a time based on what you observe in your tank.  

The questions 'enough light' and 'is co2 necessary' are completely relative to what you want to grow.  This is the fun part... your evolving skill and knowledge!

Can I ask where you got those plants?  They're in nice condition!

 

[bizfromqc]

It's so easy to get sucked into the 'what you need' mentality.  In my experience, if you start simply, it's easy to add as you learn.  Charlie used a 'gas pedal' analogy for plants that really resonated with me... if you add lots of light, lots of variables (ferts/co2), and high needs plants, you're learning to drive in a ferrari with the pedal to the metal!  When something goes wrong, you're going to end up on your roof in the ditch and you're not going to have any real idea what happened!

Start with the light you have, the plants you have, and wait.  See how they do.  See how constant you can get your water quality.  See if you keep your fish alive.  THEN start tweaking things, adding things, changing things one at a time based on what you observe in your tank.  

The questions 'enough light' and 'is co2 necessary' are completely relative to what you want to grow.  This is the fun part... your evolving skill and knowledge!

Can I ask where you got those plants?  They're in nice condition!

 

Good advice, I like the Ferrari analogy You're totally right about evolving skills and knowledge. I'll start with the lighting I have and the DIY CO2 (just because I like tinkering with stuff) and go from there.

My main goal here is to make an adequate home to a breeding (hopefully) pair of apistos and make it look good as a bonus.

I got the plants from BA on Innes. Buy 3 and get the 4th one free. Also got a really nice piece of Malasian driftwood that I will attach the windelov on. It weight about 2.5 lbs so it cost me around 12-13$ for it. It's soaking now and will hopefully move to the tank in a couple of days.

[charlie]

You have received great advice so far & sounds like you are on the right path.
One thing to note co2 in any light condition is always a plus.
Hope you can join us on the 15Th of Jan @ our plant meeting/social, lots of new planted tanks going up & looking good, this is the ideal group for you guys 
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?board=31.0
Regards

[bizfromqc]

You have received great advice so far & sounds like you are on the right path.
One thing to note co2 in any light condition is always a plus.
Hope you can join us on the 15Th of Jan @ our plant meeting/social, lots of new planted tanks going up & looking good, this is the ideal group for you guys 
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?board=31.0
Regards

I just signed up for an OVAS membership yesterday and hope to get involved in the community. With a young family at home, free "hobby" time is sometimes hard to obtain but I'd like to come out if possible to one of the meetings, hopefully the next one 

[exv152]

To answer your four questions;
1) At 2.3 w/gal you're pretty much in the middle of low & high light,
2) CO2 addition is always good, especially with the light levels you have,
3) Apistos are a nice addition, I would go with one male & a couple females to minimize aggression,
4) CaribSea Kon Tiki substrate is inert and doesn't contain nutrients, but it's nice to look at. Some form/quantity of ferts is a must, but that depends on how much lighting and CO2 you decide to go with.

As a side note, I would add more plants to speed up the cycling process, and eventually more hiding spots for the dwarf cichlids, as they really like hiding spots.

[bizfromqc]

To answer your four questions;
1) At 2.3 w/gal you're pretty much in the middle of low & high light,
2) CO2 addition is always good, especially with the light levels you have,
3) Apistos are a nice addition, I would go with one male & a couple females to minimize aggression,
4) CaribSea Kon Tiki substrate is inert and doesn't contain nutrients, but it's nice to look at. Some form/quantity of ferts is a must, but that depends on how much lighting and CO2 you decide to go with.

As a side note, I would add more plants to speed up the cycling process, and eventually more hiding spots for the dwarf cichlids, as they really like hiding spots.

That's the plan with the apistos, either get a male and a couple of females or try my luck with a pair and hope they breed. Problem with trying a harem of females is I don't have another tank now to put the extra females in when, and if, they start to breed. I have another tank (25G @ 30" x 12" x 16")  but it's still dry and not ready to go so I may start that project soon in case I get "lucky", or I should say my eventual apistos get "lucky" 

I'm afraid I picked the Kon Tiki purely based on looks and the fact that the size of the gravel was on the smaller side. I read that apistos prefer smaller gravel. I'm OK with having to use ferts in the future if required but for now I'll stick with my current lighting and soon-to-come DIY CO2 (using Hagen Elite filter as a reactor chamber) and go from there as recommended by another member.

The current setup is no way near what I want it to be. I just basically put the plants there until I had time to work on the tank. A nice piece of driftwood (about half the length of the tank) will be used (its sinking now) as well as some rocks where I can "simulate" some caverns and some clay pots for the apistos to spawn in (hopefully). I also plan to get more plants to fill in the rest of the tank footprint.

It's a lot for the size I have to work with, 24" x 12", but I think I can come up with something half-decent.

Thanks for the tips.

[fischkopp]

Welcome to the hobby and the club! You got already good advise to get the plants going, so I will add a few thing about apistos. Apistos got me started in the hobby a few years back!

I would suggest to start with a pair of A. cactuoides as they are one of the more peaceful apistos and readily available in the LFS. You are right about the harem, it will cause problems when one female decides to breed. I had once two females splitting a 15 gal (same footprint as your tank) in half while the male was enjoying the show. Mostly this will end with the death of one female though, hence more females are required, which makes breeding impossible.

The gravel could be a little finer. I keep mine with sandy bottom. The reason is that apistos like to take a mouth full of sand and spit it out in the search of food (especially the ones with wider mouths, like cacatuoides). It's they natural behavior. That said, your fish will be ok with the gravel you have now, it's just something to keep in mind for you next one ...

[bizfromqc]

Welcome to the hobby and the club! You got already good advise to get the plants going, so I will add a few thing about apistos. Apistos got me started in the hobby a few years back!

I would suggest to start with a pair of A. cactuoides as they are one of the more peaceful apistos and readily available in the LFS. You are right about the harem, it will cause problems when one female decides to breed. I had once two females splitting a 15 gal (same footprint as your tank) in half while the male was enjoying the show. Mostly this will end with the death of one female though, hence more females are required, which makes breeding impossible.

The gravel could be a little finer. I keep mine with sandy bottom. The reason is that apistos like to take a mouth full of sand and spit it out in the search of food (especially the ones with wider mouths, like cacatuoides). It's they natural behavior. That said, your fish will be ok with the gravel you have now, it's just something to keep in mind for you next one ...

Thanks for the info on the substrate. Do you have recommendations on a specific substrate (either sand or really fine gravel), maybe something that would also be suitable/beneficial for plants?

[fischkopp]

I use a mix of fine silica sand (decor sand from home depot) and Tahitian moon sand, this gives it a salt 'n pepper look and I can adjust the darkness of the substrate. It isn't plant friendly though,. I don't really care for plants in my apisto tanks, it's mainly a mix of Najas grass, java moss, maybe anubias and fern.

There is Seachem Flourite Black Sand which is sandy and good for plants, but I found it heavier and more prone to compaction than others. And it's just black, plants will look good, but fish tend to darken a lot too.

Thanks for the info on the substrate. Do you have recommendations on a specific substrate (either sand or really fine gravel), maybe something that would also be suitable/beneficial for plants?

[touchofsky]

I have used pool filter sand (available from pool and spa stores) in two planted tanks and it has worked well.  I fertilized with root tabs under heavy feeders.  PFS is white.  It is heavy enough that you can vacuum it and it doesn't seem to compact.

[bizfromqc]

I will definitely look into pool sand for the next tank, should look good with a black background and the green of the plants.

Made some minor changes to the tank today in waiting for my driftwood to finally soak. I moved the heater to the bottom left of the tank where it will be hidden by the wood and also installed a Hagen Elite mini filter that will act as a CO2 reactor. I have yet to connect the DIY CO2 line to it but I wanted to see how it would look. Its pretty small, quiet and should be hidden well by plants and/or rocks.

I plan on getting the tubing and valves tomorrow and get CO2 running by tomorrow evening if all goes well.

[bizfromqc]

Got my DIY CO2 completed and installed... waiting for bubbles...
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=52599.0

[bizfromqc]

After about 9 days in a bucket of water, changing water every two says, I finally decided to put my driftwood piece if my tank and "try" to start a half-decent aquascape while my tank is still cycling (thanks to my 5 zebra danios).

It never really floated and was sinking to the bottom of the bucket from day 1. It was leaching a LOT of tannins at first but the water got progressively lighter as the days went by. And to be honest, I don't mind a little coloration in the tank since this will eventually host apistos and they're used to the black waters of the amazon.

Here's what I came up with. There's an empty spot on the right, this will be for some rocks/caves/pots or some other hiding spots I can come up with as well as more plants. I hope that these new changes will make an adequate home for a pair of apistos.

[Peekay]

I like it!   I'm not an apisto, so I'm just speculating, but I'd live there. 

If the tannins ever bother you, activated charcoal filter inserts will take it out. 

[charlie]

I think you should look @ adding more plants & especially fast growing stem plants.
All the plants you have now are slow growers, with the lighting you have you stand a very high risk of having algae issues , do some more research on balancing between slow growers & fast growers.
Regards

[bizfromqc]

I like it!   I'm not an apisto, so I'm just speculating, but I'd live there. 

If the tannins ever bother you, activated charcoal filter inserts will take it out. 

Hehe, thanks for the comments 

[bizfromqc]

I think you should look @ adding more plants & especially fast growing stem plants.
All the plants you have now are slow growers, with the lighting you have you stand a very high risk of having algae issues , do some more research on balancing between slow growers & fast growers.
Regards

I will definitely do, as soon as I can get out to get some. I'd like something for the forefront and possible something to fill up the space behind the driftwood, making a nice green wall of "something" 

One question though, when you mention "with the lighting you have", what do you mean actually? That I have not enough or too much for the plants I have in there?

(BTW, I started to notice some brown spots on the plants/filter head.... haaaaaaaaaaaaa! Looks like you're right!)