180g tank crashing no apparent reason HELP!!!!!!!!!!

[Peekay]

I have never done salty, so I have no advice.. only hugs and condolences.  I loved reading your build thread, and you must be so frustrated to be dealing with this after all that work.  Good luck over the next days and weeks.   The dedication to your build shows, in my opinion, that you're the kind of person that will get through this!

[Bob P]

True, however, given the mortality rate you are seeing, just trying
to pinpoint what it may be.
Short of being a Marine Biologist ( any on here ? ),
who can dissect your dead fish, it's all just guessing.
Like yourself, I'd like to know what happened if it was me.
Best you can do now is stop the damage from continuing.
Good Luck.

[Dakotamay]

Thank you sooooo much Peekay. Your reply of condolences and hugs means so much.
Yes, it's been a lot of work. But, a labor of love for the hobby and our salt critters.
We went to a lot of trouble to make sure that we were employing what we'd learned to be the best practices in this new tank.
I think we went too fast. Too much in the system. AZ is right. It just stung the way he said it. It always stings to admit failure and mistakes made.
But, I did make them. Now dealing with the consequences.
I'll keep everyone up to date on how we do. I can't tell yet for today if there are anymore losses during the night. Blue lights don't come on til 11. Then I'll know. Not really looking forward to looking in.

I have never done salty, so I have no advice.. only hugs and condolences.  I loved reading your build thread, and you must be so frustrated to be dealing with this after all that work.  Good luck over the next days and weeks.   The dedication to your build shows, in my opinion, that you're the kind of person that will get through this!

[leemay]

sorry for your losses,
one thing that caught my eye was the (outside air bubbler)
hopefully its nowhere near your or your neighbors venting for a furnace/boiler/hotwater tank?

[Dakotamay]

Leemay,
Thanks for that thought. It is actually right outside our main door in a sun porch. No worry of exhausts or fumes of any kind. This started happening before that bubbler was added as well.

[rgauvin]

I just thought of something. I don't know why I didn't think of it til now.
The day we bought the tank and moved it home. It was raining. The salt trucks were out. The tank was open on a trailer.
I'm wondering if from spray from the trailer tires did salt get in there from the roads and may now be leaching out of the back rock walls. Does this make any sense?

I would have expected road salt and other contaminants to get in the tank if I understand your description of how you transported it. How thoroughly did you clean the tank when you got it home?

[Dakotamay]

The tank was rinsed down with freshwater and drained out.  I would say probably not thoroughly enough to be honest. It never occurred to me til now about the transport of the tank and weather etc that day.
I am still hearing that it is a crash though and that we went too fast setting up and putting all our stuff from the 75g in etc.....
I'm not sure which it is. I think I'm leaning towards it's crashing because of too much too fast.
Either way, there isn't anything I can do at this point about either. It's just going to take time. I have to do a 60g water change on the 31st. So that will help dilute any toxicity if it is from road salt or something of that nature.

[darkphreak]

You might want to do that water change now and another next week. Whatever is causing your tank to crash needs to be taken out with water changes.

[bt]

Prime will screw up the results of most ammonia tests.  Those tests will continue to read the ammonia that is bound up and non-toxic thanks to the Prime (meaning they'll read high, never low).  Same goes for other ammonia binders like Ammo-Lock.  You need a test that only looks at free ammonia to get an accurate reading.

They also won't affect the cycle.  Beneficial bacteria can still process the bound up ammonia.

A tank doesn't "just crash" - there's always a cause.  Though it may be something that we as hobbyists don't have the means to test for.  There aren't very many WQ tests left for you to try - Magnesium, Iron, Iodine, Silicate, Copper, Strontium.  I think we've ruled out copper though. I'm not really sure if any of the others could have this effect either, to be honest.  There's other stuff as well, but I think you'd need a professional lab to test your water for those.

I'm reading up on Zeobak - the white stringy stuff might be a symptom of overdosing it.  In general though, I'm pretty skeptical about "bacteria in a bottle".  Are you using any of the other Zeo products?

[Dakotamay]

Not using any other Zeo Products. I hadn't done any bacteria additions for a week or so now. I can't remember the last time I added the bacteria from the bottle.
It's something. I think it's my error. Too fast, too much bio load, not enough actual live rock of just 80lbs.

Prime will screw up the results of most ammonia tests.  Those tests will continue to read the ammonia that is bound up and non-toxic thanks to the Prime (meaning they'll read high, never low).  Same goes for other ammonia binders like Ammo-Lock.  You need a test that only looks at free ammonia to get an accurate reading.

They also won't affect the cycle.  Beneficial bacteria can still process the bound up ammonia.

A tank doesn't "just crash" - there's always a cause.  Though it may be something that we as hobbyists don't have the means to test for.  There aren't very many WQ tests left for you to try - Magnesium, Iron, Iodine, Silicate, Copper, Strontium.  I think we've ruled out copper though. I'm not really sure if any of the others could have this effect either, to be honest.  There's other stuff as well, but I think you'd need a professional lab to test your water for those.

I'm reading up on Zeobak - the white stringy stuff might be a symptom of overdosing it.  In general though, I'm pretty skeptical about "bacteria in a bottle".  Are you using any of the other Zeo products?

[Dakotamay]

Well, it's just after 12. My whites come on at 12.
Almost all fish are accounted for. My one little sebae clown, whom I'd seen near the rocks earlier, is now missing. Clowns don't usually go into the rocks at least any I've had don't. This sebae never did. So, I'm assuming it's now lost as well. It's partner the larger female is also looking around for him. Maybe he'll reappear. I'm not hopeful of this.

The rest of the fish in general seem well today. No further color loss, rapid breathing has subsided. The only two I'm still concerned about are of course the $80 each Picasso clowns. They are both full of the ich looking stuff. But, their color is better today. Breathing a little better today.  HOpefully they continue to get better. Time will tell all.

What's weird, the 3 Dispar Anthias, yellow watchman goby, purple and regular red fire fish are all acting as though nothing is happening in their world except they are wondering why no food. The McKoskers wrasse looks and is acting normal today as is the red marble scooter blenny (couldn't bare to lose her too. Losing Manny our Mandarin has been heartbreaking enough. Of the fish we have Manny, Scooty and Herman, our watchmen have been with us the longest.)

Wow does the tank ever look empty.

The nems seem to be happier today as do the rest of the corals in general and lights have only been on for 25 mins white, with an hour lead in of blues.

Maybe we've turned the corner and things will start to improve from here.

[brotherluv]

Since its advisable to do several water changes in the near future I'd consider the hyposalinity option!  It's the safest way to treat ich in my opinion!  Even if its just a precaution I don't see any harm in trying it.

[Dakotamay]

I'm on the 2nd day of Proto Marin treatment. This is a 6 day treatment. On the 6th day it calls for a 30% water change. In our case 60g. I'm going to hold off on water changes for now. Take water samples regularly twice a day and only do an emerg water change if something is spiking in the next couple days.

[bt]

Doing hypo in the DT will likely kill everything but the fish, though.  You really do need a separate tank for that.

[Severum]

Wow, so many responses over the last day. A+ to this supportive community.

In reading the thread the thing that stuck out for me is that you got live rock walls with the tank you bought. They all died in transport but you used them again. Thats is a ton of die off when you consider the dimensions of your 180. The dead stuff on those walls is just starting to decompose now. You'll probably be getting more and more ammonia problems as time goes by. Granted you threw in 75 or 100 lbs of live rock, but its not going to be enough to deal with that wall in such a short time.

In addition to that, all the dead matter in the walls will stay trapped there and fuel unwanted algae blooms for years to come. I have first hand experience in this. When I redid my tank I "cooked" every single piece of establish live rock and I couldn't believe the amount of crud that came off of otherwise clean looking live rock.

Hypo in the DT will be a bad idea like bt says cuz you'll kill all kinds of worms and critters that live in your rock leading to further die of and ammonia and another cycle.

In the long run it might be easier and more rewarding to start this tank over. That's my recommendation.

[Dakotamay]

I don't think I agree with the back wall trapping anything. They are ceramic plates that are glued to the wall. The surface is all exposed to the current. Any matter there would be removed by the flow. I know not having seen these ceramic plates, you're not sure what I mean. They don't actually have any spots that are like an actual rock wall where stuff can get into. It's hard to explain. Let me see if I can find the link to what they are again when I get back from picking up my hubby from work.
I don't think we need to start the tank over. That would literally mean a whole brand new 180g. Those rock walls were glued on by the previous owner and they're not coming off anytime soon lol. We would of liked to have remove them. You'd surely crack the back pane of glass trying.
I'm not going to put the fishes through hypo. They are better today so far. Going to wait it out and see how they do.

[az]

it wasnt the back rock wall that did it though, yes it overloaded your LR's capacity, but IMO it was the sand!!

unfortunately it is very common, happens to many people during move, happened to me.

when you are moving stuff from one tank to another, (without disturbing the sand) move the water, rock, fish, coral etc but not the sand, once everything is running nicely, add completely rinsed new or old sand 1 - 2 cups a day, gives LR enough time to cope, and it will not cloud your water.

[beertech]

I think one of the most important things you can do at this point is large, frequent water changes. Why are you hesitating to do do that?
In my opinion, that could also be one of the many causes of all this, during the first 30 days of heavily stocking a new tank while cycling it, you only did one 20 gal water change?
I think it would really help your situation to remove as much of the existing pollutants as possible.

[Dakotamay]

I agree beertech. But then I'm also caught in that I'm treating with Proto Marin Coral for the ich the fish now have. It calls for a 30% in our case a 60 gal water change on the 6th day that is the 31st. Today is the 28th. I feel I need to continue the already started treatment.
Basically, I'm not sure what will benefit them more at this point. Finish the treatment or interrupt that and do large water changes.

[joeyt66]

Im not familiar with that type of treatment. But if your worried couldnt you just treat the new water before adding it to the tank.
That shouldn't disrupt the treatment. 
Also i know you live near or around Kingston, Im only around 20 mins from. If you need anything like spare tanks to quarantine or any equipment heaters airpumps power heads. I have (as my wife would say) enough for all of Kingston  lol I have no issues lending them to you. Im also ready for a water change to ( aprox 25- 30 g) Tomorrow . If you need some mature water for your tank or just for Quarantining