180g tank crashing no apparent reason HELP!!!!!!!!!!

[Dakotamay]

We set up  our new 180g tank on December 31st. Everything has been going fine. It went through a small cycle. We had moved our entire 75g contents, fish, coral and inverts to the new tank.
Here's a timeline of events

Monday the 16th of Jan I lost my citrinis goby. I didn't think anything of this as he had never really thrived and eaten well. He was skinny and not eating well again. So, wrote it off to that.

Wednesday the 18th. Lost my Lamarck Angel. This fish didn't show any signs of stress or anything out of place at all. It ate that morning. I came home that afternoon and found it breathing heavily lying on the substrate, whithin a couple hours was dead.

Tuesday the 24th. My vlamingi, orange shoulder and blue tang (Dory) hid all day. This was extremely strange and out of character for the 3 of them.

Wednesday I left the lights off to alleviate stress. The fish were still not looking good last night when I went to bed.

Today, Thursday the 26th. The orange shoulder and blue tang are dead. I can't find the vlamingi. My midas blenny is almost dead, as is my mandarin. I'm sure it's only a matter of hours. My red marble scooter is unaccounted for as is my tail spot blenny.

Accounted for are 3 dispar anthias, 2 sebae clowns, 2 picasso clowns, red firefish, purple firefish and McKoskers wrasse. Another interesting thing, I have some nas snails also dead on the substrate.

Through out this entire time I have been testing the water 2 or 3 times a day and have had all 0's reading for ammonia, nitrates and nitrites. I even took a water sample to Forty Fathoms in Gan to see if my test kits were off.
My salinity is stable at 1.025. I use a Tunze auto top off. The RO water is stored in a 25g tank below the main tank beside the sump tank. There is a 400g/h Koralia in there to keep it circulated.

I really can't figure out what is happening. There were no new additions right before this happening. Nothing out of the ordinary at all. I did change lights but I don't think it would have a ripple effect this many days later. My nems are clearly not happy either.

I have pics of the deceased if you would like them posted to see if you see anything at all.

Many many thanks in advance to all who brainstorm here with me. I need to figure this out.

[Dakotamay]

Also forgot to mention a little more detail about the set up.

Here goes,
180g display
50g sump
Vertex In180 skimmer
sock where the over flow, flows into the sump
1 bag of Vertex bio pellets in a reef octopus bio pellet reactor
carbon in an MR1 reactor
396 return pump
closed loop running a dart 4200g/h
3 1050 koralia
80 pounds live rock from the 75g (all in the 50g sump)
260lbs eco rock

Also forgot to mention that I inoculated the tank with bacterias while starting up. It was Zeo Bak.

Hmmmm, not sure if I'm forgetting anything. I'm just so upset right now. Hope this more detailed system info helps.

[bt]

Some brainstorming:

Any chance of heavy metal poisoning?

What do you use to test the salinity?  Have you calibrated it recently?

Check the TDS on your RO?

You mention the fish and the nems, but how are the coral looking?

Any chance the skimmer overflowed at some point?

Pictures might help to see if there are any visible signs of infection.  So far though, it sounds like you've got something toxic in the water that's doing the damage.

[bt]

How's the water temperature?

Any visible signs of aggression?

[Dakotamay]

Hi bt,
Thanks for taking time to brain storm.
No the skimmer didn't over flow. I have it drain into a 2l pop bottle.

As for heavy metal poisoning, I don't think so. I only use RO/DI water. We just replaced all the cartridges in it. Ran it the normal half hour to rinse them all out. Then made up the RO/DI water for auto top offs.


I use a refractometer to test salinity. It was checked for calibration. All is good. Also matches the refractometer that Jim uses at Forty Fathoms. He tested everything yesterday and all came up good.

Jim just checked TDS yesterday too. Read 0.

Corals aren't too happy either. Not completely closed, but not their normal selves.

Temp doesn't range anymore than a degree. The reef keeper lite is set to control the 2 400w heaters. 78.5 with hysteresis of .5. The tank stays at 78.3 lowest, so heaters don't even come on. Highest is 79.3

None of the fish were aggressive. The tangs all went in at the same time and got along great. Never witnessed them fighting at all. Even the red and purple firefish get along. Usually swim right by each other. The two pairs of clowns each have their own nem at opposite ends of the tank and again went in at the same time. They never go near each other.

I'm baffled. How could I test to see if it's heavy metal poisoning?

[bt]

Are you supplementing anything?

Have you checked the temperature with a separate thermometer?

Any chance of stray voltage?

Anything else you've tested for? (PH, alk, phosphates, etc)

It definitely sounds like a water quality issue of some kind though.  Unlikely to be a parasite or virus if fish and corals are being affected.

[bt]

There are also test kits for metals - Iron, copper, etc.

Here's a good article on dealing with them, though light on the testing for them part (waring: very in depth): http://www.reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-04/rhf/feature/index.php

[brotherluv]

I am very sorry to hear about your loss!  Hopefully the folks here can help you figure it out...you used the water from your old tank? 

[Dakotamay]

No not supplementing anything. The only thing I'm doing to raise my PH is running a bubbler outside with the lines into the sump. I have stale air in the winter I guess lol. The PH has only been raised by .2 by doing this.

Yes, temp is checked by the Itemp on the reefkeeper and I also keep a 2nd digital in the sump tank. They are both spot on at 78.4.

I have had that in the past, would get shocked every time I put my hand in the tank. That's not happening so I'm going to say I don't think so.

As mentioned above. PH was at 7.75 and staying when lights out. I confirmed this with a second PH reader (pen like instrument) It read .2 higher than what my reef keeper is reading. So, I slightly calibrated it a tad low. Now PH when lights are out is 7.82. With lights on it's around 8.1.
Haven't tested alk, or mag. Never have. Calcium is 440. Phosphates are 0 as well. Had Jim test those yesterday too.

Nothing foreign was introduced to the tank. No new equipment. No new fish or corals. I can't figure this out.

Thanks for your help.  I have noticed since the white lights came on (LED's) that the clowns and the McKoskers wrasse have a white fuzzy  stringy stuff on them. I am thinking from my frantic reading that this is cryptocaryon. If so I need to get up to Jims again today and get proto marin coral to treat.

I'm about to upload pics. I'll post them in a few minutes. Please stand by.

Thank you so much for your help.

Are you supplementing anything?

Have you checked the temperature with a separate thermometer?

Any chance of stray voltage?

Anything else you've tested for? (PH, alk, phosphates, etc)

It definitely sounds like a water quality issue of some kind though.  Unlikely to be a parasite or virus if fish and corals are being affected.

[Dakotamay]

Pics













I also have these on my glass. Never seen them in my nearly 2 years of having a saltwater tank.

[rgauvin]

I also have these on my glass. Never seen them in my nearly 2 years of having a saltwater tank.

*NM* I am now not as sure about them being hydroids... GL, I hope you get it sorted out without any more losses. I'm 3 weeks into my SW hobby and I am petrified of my inevitable first crash...

[kole18]

I think you got those parasite from clownfish or fungus that infected all your fish, this happened to me a couple of years ago it started on my clown & slowly passes it all to tank mates. you should QT those fish all have been infected if you don't this will kill all your fish , if your water it's all in right level then isn't about your water is the issue here. This is exactly what happened to my tank before it started with pair of clownfish & it killed all my fish I was new to this problem i didn't even bother to separate those fish have been infected all. I can tell your clownfish has a fungus all over it's body those white cloudy thing around your fish those are fungus, I'm not sure or I read this on RC's they say to take this out from your fish you should dip it to r/o water for few sec to washout all those fungus. I'd never try it but they say it works well sorry about what happen to your tank I knw how you feel same what happened to me before & I hope went everything ok after all this problem goodluck.

[moused]

Do you have a QT tank?  I would pull the fish and get them into some clean water.  See if they improve in the new water.

Sounds like something harsh in the water column.  prob is what.  Sounds like your loosing your sensitive fish first.

Recommendations:
have you tested your Nitrates and ammonia with another test kit?
have you scoured the tank in case something got knocked in (like a penny or razor blade) - hence people asking to test for copper.
Is that Ick I see on some of the photo's?? (maybe you just went through a heavy cycle of ick-that would kill at this level)

questions:
do you have a sump? (how are you managing oxygen)
do you have a cucumber in the tank? (poison)
have you added any new anemone's? (stung)
is there any white puss/fuss on any of the animals? (fungal infection)
are you on city water or well water? (contaminated well)

[Dakotamay]

The clowns aren't new. So, I don't think that anything came from them.  I might have figured this out. I can't find a copper test kit around Brockville.
Here's what I think:
We bought a used 25g tank for our RO/DI auto top off water storage. It came out of a pet store when it shut down. I am not sure if the tank was used for freshwater, I think it was. I'm thinking that they may have possibly dosed copper into that tank at some point while they had it. It would make sense. In theory. The tank has only been up a month. I've done 1 water change on it. The rest before that was auto top off. Slow acclimation to the copper. Til it got too high for them to stand. Stressed, getting infections and dying.
We're not taking any chances. The 25g is being drained as I write this. New, I mean brand new going into it's place. I've also picked up Proto Marin Coral for treating the now ich conditions to alleviate that from the fish. Over the next 6 days I'll be doing the Proto Marin treatment at which time it requires a 30% water change on the 6th day. So, if it is copper, over the next 6 days, there will be clean auto top off water going in to dilute if there is any copper. Then a big change to take out the meds and also remove some more of the copper.  This should help.
I'm not even sure it is copper. I'm just thinking it makes sense.

Thanks all for the condolences. Our fish will be sadly missed, especially our Manny (mandarin) He was a special guy. Would beg at the glass for pellets by showing me his belly lol. He taught the red marble scooter to do this too.  Of the fish lost so far. This fish was the one we had the longest.

I think you got those parasite from clownfish or fungus that infected all your fish, this happened to me a couple of years ago it started on my clown & slowly passes it all to tank mates. you should QT those fish all have been infected if you don't this will kill all your fish , if your water it's all in right level then isn't about your water is the issue here. This is exactly what happened to my tank before it started with pair of clownfish & it killed all my fish I was new to this problem i didn't even bother to separate those fish have been infected all. I can tell your clownfish has a fungus all over it's body those white cloudy thing around your fish those are fungus, I'm not sure or I read this on RC's they say to take this out from your fish you should dip it to r/o water for few sec to washout all those fungus. I'd never try it but they say it works well sorry about what happen to your tank I knw how you feel same what happened to me before & I hope went everything ok after all this problem goodluck.

[Severum]

I dont think copper is toxic to fish but rather inverts. There are marine fish treatments that have copper in them and your only supposed to dose those in a hospital tank.

[Dakotamay]

No, I don't have one as I only buy from one shop. Forty Fathoms in Gan. I trust everything that comes out of there. I've never had a problem in 2 years. They are all quarantined in his tanks first.
I know many will give me heck for this. But, it's worked for us. The only thing we've ever had an issue with was ich when bringing in a new tang. Normal, almost always happens from stress. Tangs are ich magnets.

Yes it seems something is in the water. If you read the post above that I made you will see my theory.

Yes, again if you read my posts above. I took a water sample to Jim and he tested for just about anything we could think of at the time. Ammonia, nitrate, Nitrites, PH, Calcium. I don't even remember them all. Oh, phosphates, TDS. Tested it all.  Everything checks out.

Nothing could of fallen into the tank. It is completely closed off.

Yes, if you again read above. We have a 50g sump. We have a vertex in 180 skimmer. Running a bubbler outside to the sump for fresh outside oxygen. 3 koralia 1050 power heads, a 4200 gal per hour closed loop. There's lots of oxygen lol.

No cucumber or new nems. Just the two we've always had.


We're on well water. But, as mentioned we run all the tank water through an RO/DI unit and that filters in that unit were all just replaced last week as they were a year old.

Do you have a QT tank?  I would pull the fish and get them into some clean water.  See if they improve in the new water.

Sounds like something harsh in the water column.  prob is what.  Sounds like your loosing your sensitive fish first.

Recommendations:
have you tested your Nitrates and ammonia with another test kit?
have you scoured the tank in case something got knocked in (like a penny or razor blade) - hence people asking to test for copper.
Is that Ick I see on some of the photo's?? (maybe you just went through a heavy cycle of ick-that would kill at this level)

questions:
do you have a sump? (how are you managing oxygen)
do you have a cucumber in the tank? (poison)
have you added any new anemone's? (stung)
is there any white puss/fuss on any of the animals? (fungal infection)
are you on city water or well water? (contaminated well)

[Dakotamay]

Here's what's interesting. Before all this started, we added a new scarlet skunk cleaner shrimp. It died within hours. Also, our peppermint shrimp has been MIA for a while now in the new tank.
Our larger blood shrimp and skunk cleaner are fine. Could they have built up a tolerance as the copper level slowly raised through auto top off? maybe, I don't know.
Ultimately I'm grasping at straws here, because there is absolutely no indication from any testing or reading I've done to tell me what is going on.
If it is copper. Can't it become toxic if too much? I would think so. I'm not sure if that's what's happening, but I've now removed that 25g used tank and it's water is down the drain just to be safe.

I dont think copper is toxic to fish but rather inverts. There are marine fish treatments that have copper in them and your only supposed to dose those in a hospital tank.

[NjOyRiD]

There is a 400g/h Koralia in there to keep it circulated.

itds al lyou have in there for circulation?

[bt]

I dont think copper is toxic to fish but rather inverts. There are marine fish treatments that have copper in them and your only supposed to dose those in a hospital tank.

Yeah, copper is used to treat ich.  Above trace levels it would kill the corals and the inverts, but not the fish.  Other heavy metals (like iron) might do the fish in (which is why I suggested the possibility), but I don't know for sure.  There might be levels of copper high enough to hurt the fish, but the corals and inverts would all be completely dead by now if that were the case.

[Rybren]

Do you have any Bio-Marine Poly Filter?  If so, run some on your tank.  It will remove copper and some heavy metals.  It will also turn green if there is copper in the water.

If you don't have any, Big Al's usually carries it.  Some other LFS may also have it in stock.  I have some that I could give you, but unfortunately, I'm in Orleans.