180g tank crashing no apparent reason HELP!!!!!!!!!!

[Rybren]

A few possibilities come to mind:

- Stress from the move
- Stress from the ammonia last week
- Potential introduction of a parasite/bacterium/unknown pathogen with the new fish, coupled with the stress above (may not account for the loss of inverts)
- Toxic substance introduced to the tank (my current favourite culprit).  What type of glue did you use to attach the rock wall?
- Have you been using a new container of salt? It could be a bad batch (had this happen to me last year)
- Possible stray voltage (you may not feel it)

[az]

tank wasnt ready, nothing else!

75lbs of rock will take a long time to seed 150lbs of eco/dry rock wall. there was not enough good rock to work on the uncured rock + new sand + new water, good chance you will lose rest of the fish, i'd suggest you move them(fish+coral) elsewhere and just run the tank for few months before anything else.

time is the only solution.

[kole18]

Yup your right az , tank is new & needs to recycle atleast a month. Those rocks aren't LR's oh geez ! You know if those aren't cured LR's I would suggest to mix with LR's it makes your tank easy to recycle or I would add a sanbed & cheatos maybe a pcs of LR's to restablish your tank this really help a lot not just by suggesting this help to eliminate all those heavy metals stuff in your water such nitrates, phos & ammonia as well to improved your livestock health & again in this hobby you gotta have patient to succeed

[salvini55]

Agree with above, WAY too fast! two large tangs added during a cycle is bad news. Prime is only a bandaid for the ammonia. It is still present in the water. There is alot going on in your tank right now and things need to even them selves out for at least another month or two.

Ammonia test kits are notoriously inaccurate, or so I've read. I would be skeptical of 0 readings all across the board in such a new tank.

Im sorry you had to go through this and I wish you the best. Patience really pays in spades, and dollar $igns in this hobby.

[Dakotamay]

I've only done 1 20g water change and that was a week ago this past Wednesday January, 18th. 
With the tank upgrade we didn't add any live rock. We put in the 80lbs we  could fit of the 110lbs that we had. The other 25lbs is at Jims to be sold. I may go up and get it back and put it in the display tank. What do you all think? good idea to put it back in now or let things be at this point?

I have seen the nitrates go to 20ppm then drop back off. No Nitrites ever yet. Ammonia went as high as .50 then back down again as the nitrates started to appear. I appeared to me that the cycle was started and did complete. I don't believe it was a case of too much Prime. I still had ammonia reading even with the prime and I did stop the Prime once the ammonia reading started to decline and nitrates started to come up.
Even with using the Prime my ammonia was staying at .50 which is why I used the Prime as I figured it was much much higher than that if I hadn't used the Prime.

nice synopsis

yeah I'm opinion it's a bad case of ick...interesting that you get results with that chemical...(i'm curious about it now)

In all this cycling of the new tank...what's your frequency of your water changes?  
With the tank upgrade did you add alot of new live rock or just use what you had from old tank?

Brainstorming:
have you seen the same tracking of nitrites as well.  if you havn't seen nitrites and Nitrates then you're tank havn't cycled yet.  You essentially pulled the item that is needed to start the cycle (ammonia) by using too much prime...maybe?...but if you've been testing while your fish were dying then the cycle should have shown up on your test kits...

[Dakotamay]

We used the Orca Underwater Glue. The black color one. Here's a link to exactly what I used. http://fortyfathoms.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=37&product_id=442
I know that it's not this.
Thanks though for thinking of that. I really appreciate how much everyone is taking time to read and analyze and suggest.

What did you use to glue you rock walls?

[Dakotamay]

Possible. But from my experience so far in almost 2 years which isn't much I know. If it was stress. It shouldn't of taken almost a month to show up and start affecting the fish. I don't think anyways. They've been in this new tank since December 31st.
There was no ammonia last week. There hasn't been ammonia since the week before. The week of the 9th.
This is a possibility. There could of been something introduced from the new fish. However, Jim has had no issues in his tank and those fish were in his tank for a couple weeks before coming here. Also fish from that same shipment are still in his tanks now.
Again as I answered the same question we used Orca Underwater Glue, Black. http://fortyfathoms.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=37&product_id=442
No still using the same bucket of salt I was using in the 75g. No issues with it.
How would I test for stray voltage? I figured if I wasn't getting shocked (which I have before from a power head) then that wasn't an issue.

A few possibilities come to mind:

- Stress from the move
- Stress from the ammonia last week
- Potential introduction of a parasite/bacterium/unknown pathogen with the new fish, coupled with the stress above (may not account for the loss of inverts)
- Toxic substance introduced to the tank (my current favourite culprit).  What type of glue did you use to attach the rock wall?
- Have you been using a new container of salt? It could be a bad batch (had this happen to me last year)
- Possible stray voltage (you may not feel it)

[Dakotamay]

Wow. I appreciate you chiming in. But, and I don't mean to be rude here. You need to re read my thread. I have 80lbs of live rock, that came out of my 75g system. I have 260lbs of eco rock not 150lbs. It was not new substrate, it was used and was rinsed out. It was the substrate that had been in the tank already. Healthy system that was up and going strong for 7 months before we bought it.
Also you seem to have missed that I dosed heavily with Zeo Bak to assist in the lack of live rock itself and seed the new eco rock.

tank wasnt ready, nothing else!

75lbs of rock will take a long time to seed 150lbs of eco/dry rock wall. there was not enough good rock to work on the uncured rock + new sand + new water, good chance you will lose rest of the fish, i'd suggest you move them(fish+coral) elsewhere and just run the tank for few months before anything else.

time is the only solution.

[Dakotamay]

There is live rock in the display tank as well. Not much no, but some. Also as mentioned to AZ's post. I seeded the tank heavily with Zeo Bak as well to assist the tank in establishing a good beneficial bacteria colonization in the water column and in the rocks.

Yup your right az , tank is new & needs to recycle atleast a month. Those rocks aren't LR's oh geez ! You know if those aren't cured LR's I would suggest to mix with LR's it makes your tank easy to recycle or I would add a sanbed & cheatos maybe a pcs of LR's to restablish your tank this really help a lot not just by suggesting this help to eliminate all those heavy metals stuff in your water such nitrates, phos & ammonia as well to improved your livestock health & again in this hobby you gotta have patient to succeed

[Darth]

just throwing it out there maybe its your test kits that are fubared. I see you keep getting good results when you test, but I have seen one test kit show zero amonina and then another show ammonia off the charts, I personally think we need to start thinking smaller such as test kits, because a few things are wierd such as some new shrimp dead while others that have been in the tank are good to go. How long was the new tank up before you switched? It could be perhaps the rock wall is leeching something into the thank, perhaps the glue didn't cure enough, or something in the rock needed time to cure? I would at this point do a few water changes over the next few days and not add anything new to the tank till you figure out whats going on. I would not add anymore live rock, why spend the money and the risk of contaminating more stuff Just my opinion, good luck. Also have you tried running carbon?

[Hookup]

IMO, still was ammonia poison to the gills of the fish.  Some people report similar "weird crashes" with same or near same testing results.  Common element.  Use of PRIME to speed things up.

[Dakotamay]

I know well that nothing good happens fast in this hobby. Only bad happens fast. Been through a few tank crashes when we started this hobby almost 2 years ago.
The tangs weren't large lol. They were 1 inch and about 3 inches. The little vlamingi was a tiny fart yet. The orange shoulder was a little larger. Yes, should of waited to get them I agree. Hind sight is 20/20.
However the rest had to be moved over. There wasn't a choice.
Yes, Prime I know is a band aid. I used it to just ensure that the ammonia level didn't become toxic enough to harm the fish and corals. Once it started to decline. I stopped using and it declined on its own as the Nitrates rose. They then fell off and yes, with two different test kits. I've had no ammonia reading since it dropped off to 0.
Nitrates also slowly dropped off to 0.

The more I think and read everyone's answers. I do think the tank is just crashing. No, there are no ammonia readings, nitrates or nitrites to indicate it. But, none the less. I think it's just crashing. It's really the only explanation I think.

Time is what it needs.

Nothing new will go into the tank for at least a couple months. If we even decide to stay in the hobby. Hubby and I are really finding our nerves stretched to the limit.

In regards to AZ's comment of moving the fish and corals out. The fish are already so stressed that doing so would just kill them anyways. It's better I feel to just let them be. Besides. We'd never get them out without draining the whole tank and pulling all the rock out. That would be extremely stressful.  Even if they could be taken out. I don't have another holding tank big enough to accommodate them all. No shop would have the space to take in already sick fish either. I wouldn't even ask someone to take in sick fish and possibly contaminate their system too. They'll have to stay. What survives, survives. It's sad. I'm not happy about it.  I feel like a horrible failure to the critters we love and vowed to provide the very best possible home for. The reason for upgrading to a 180g.

Anyways. Thanks all for the help and suggestions. I'll update how it goes. At this point I think everyone has exhausted any possibilities that it could be other than just a tank crash.

Agree with above, WAY too fast! two large tangs added during a cycle is bad news. Prime is only a bandaid for the ammonia. It is still present in the water. There is alot going on in your tank right now and things need to even them selves out for at least another month or two.

Ammonia test kits are notoriously inaccurate, or so I've read. I would be skeptical of 0 readings all across the board in such a new tank.

Im sorry you had to go through this and I wish you the best. Patience really pays in spades, and dollar $igns in this hobby.

[Darth]

don't give up hope. it happens, unfortunately it does happen, sorry to hear it, but just keep plugging along. As I said I would do a few water changes over the next week and monitor what you have and see how they do
good luck

[Dakotamay]

I tested with mine as did Jim of Forty Fathoms with a couple of his. I don't think it's a bad test kit issue.
The 75g was up for 8 weeks. Don't freak out lol. Prior to that all of the contents, water, live rock everything came from our 110g that sprung a leak. Everything was aged over a year in that tank. We had no issues with moving everything to the 75g. No new rock or water was needed obviously with having gone down from a 110g to a 75g.  Just re read that. The new tank itself everything was moved over to it right away. We didn't have the space in our home to keep both tanks running. Wish I did. The 75g was pre sold and moved out once emptied.
I'm treating with Proto Marin Coral right now. That is a 6 day treatment where you stop the skimmer and carbon for days 1 and 2 while dosing. Day 3 resume skimmer and carbon and feed the fish. Day 4 stop skimmer and carbon and don't feed and dose. Days 5 & 6 no dosing, resume skimmer, carbon and feeding. Day 6 do a 30% water change. So for us will be around 60gals. I'm making the water now. It will take a few days to make. I can only make about 15gals a day with my water pressure.

just throwing it out there maybe its your test kits that are fubared. I see you keep getting good results when you test, but I have seen one test kit show zero amonina and then another show ammonia off the charts, I personally think we need to start thinking smaller such as test kits, because a few things are wierd such as some new shrimp dead while others that have been in the tank are good to go. How long was the new tank up before you switched? It could be perhaps the rock wall is leeching something into the thank, perhaps the glue didn't cure enough, or something in the rock needed time to cure? I would at this point do a few water changes over the next few days and not add anything new to the tank till you figure out whats going on. I would not add anymore live rock, why spend the money and the risk of contaminating more stuff Just my opinion, good luck. Also have you tried running carbon?

[Dakotamay]

yeah, just frustrated as all he** right now. What scares me the most right now is that there are 5 bodies in there that we couldn't reach to get out. Not without tearing all the rocks out. That is going to wreak havoc on the ammonia and nitrates, nitrites levels.
It's going to be a rocky road for the next month or two as we get through this.

don't give up hope. it happens, unfortunately it does happen, sorry to hear it, but just keep plugging along. As I said I would do a few water changes over the next week and monitor what you have and see how they do
good luck

[Bob P]

Thanks for your help.  I have noticed since the white lights came on (LED's) that the clowns and the McKoskers wrasse have a white fuzzy  stringy stuff on them. 

This could be an outbreak of Coral Reef Disease. Going by your comment about
stringy stuff trailing off the fish. They are shedding slime when this happens.
I don't think it's a cycle thing.
This condition looks like ich, only white spots are way smaller, and spreads
to other fish very quickly, like a day. Kills fast also.
Lots of stress from the move, sure.
May have triggered it.
Just putting it out there.

[Dakotamay]

I just did a search for Coral Reef Disease and didn't come up with anything that tells me more. I get all kinds of generalized sites about coral reef diseases. Not a specific condition.
How would one treat this?
I'm currently treating with Proto Marin Coral.

Thanks for your help.  I have noticed since the white lights came on (LED's) that the clowns and the McKoskers wrasse have a white fuzzy  stringy stuff on them. 

This could be an outbreak of Coral Reef Disease. Going by your comment about
stringy stuff trailing off the fish. They are shedding slime when this happens.
I don't think it's a cycle thing.
This condition looks like ich, only white spots are way smaller, and spreads
to other fish very quickly, like a day. Kills fast also.
Lots of stress from the move, sure.
May have triggered it.
Just putting it out there.

[Bob P]

Velvet, or coral fish disease. Oodinium
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/aaich_oodinium.htm

[Dakotamay]

I just thought of something. I don't know why I didn't think of it til now.
The day we bought the tank and moved it home. It was raining. The salt trucks were out. The tank was open on a trailer.
I'm wondering if from spray from the trailer tires did salt get in there from the roads and may now be leaching out of the back rock walls. Does this make any sense?

[Dakotamay]

That's what I am treating for with Proto Marin Coral.

Velvet, or coral fish disease. Oodinium
http://saltaquarium.about.com/od/ichparasiticdiseases/a/aaich_oodinium.htm