180g tank crashing no apparent reason HELP!!!!!!!!!!

[Dakotamay]

Hey Joeyt66,
I'm actually an hour from Kingston. I'm in Brockville.
I thank you for the generous offer. I have removed 30g of water and replaced so far with the 15g I had made up. I'm making up more RO/DI water as I write. I will be mixing this to slightly lower salinity so as not to spike my salinity overall in the system.
The fish are so stressed out now that I think if I was to try and catch them and remove them they'd die for sure. I'd also never catch 5 of them anyways, 3 dispar anthias and a purple and red firefish. Oh and my yellow watchmen so 6. Make that 7 my McKoskers would hide too. Really the only ones I'd get out without much stress would be 2 Picasso's and a sebae clown.
Unfortunately I'm just going to have to keep toughing it through with them and hope they pull through.
If I do need anything though I'll certainly be in touch.
Again, I thank you so much for your generous offer.

Im not familiar with that type of treatment. But if your worried couldnt you just treat the new water before adding it to the tank.
That shouldn't disrupt the treatment. 
Also i know you live near or around Kingston, Im only around 20 mins from. If you need anything like spare tanks to quarantine or any equipment heaters airpumps power heads. I have (as my wife would say) enough for all of Kingston  lol I have no issues lending them to you. Im also ready for a water change to ( aprox 25- 30 g) Tomorrow . If you need some mature water for your tank or just for Quarantining 

[joeyt66]

No problem at all. Dont hesitate to ask if needed. Good luck in your battle. Hopefully your on the right track and can put this behind you and chaulk it up to gaining experience in this sometime time very frustrating hobby. But i might add as well very rewarding when things are going smooth.
Good Luck

[Dakotamay]

It's very frustrating right now. We just lost a Picasso clown.  The death toll just keeps rising everyday.  I fed a small amount and the one dispar anthias didn't eat. Anyone that knows anthias, they eat and a lot. This fish has never not ate before now. It'll be the next one to go.

[beertech]

Ok,
At this point, I highly recommend more water changes. Forget the Ich treatment, that's not your issue. There is something in your water, either Phosphates or Ammonia that could be bound and hidden from your test kits by all the Prime or other stuff you've been adding. The dead bodies that haven't been removed are now decomposing and causing a spike.
The only way to remove these pollutants is with large water changes.
I would do at least 20-30 gal every other day for a week or so.
Even if you don't wait for your R.O water to be made, go ahead and use tap water and just treat it with Prime. Just make sure the temp and salinity match your tank water.
I have been running reef tanks for almost 10 years now and have only recently switched over to R.O water, never had issues with negative effects on fish.
If you really don't want to use tap water, see if you can buy bottled R.O water somewhere, but don't wait!
Also, start running Carbon and phosphate media, in any type of filter, or reactor, whatever. I would use at least a cup of carbon and change it out every 3 days or so. The phosphate media doesn't need to be changed for at least a few weeks.
Do not add any other chemicals or treatments to your tank until things settle down.
You can get through this and minimize any more losses if you just keep things simple and don't skimp on the water changes.

Good luck

[Dakotamay]

I did ditch the treatment and have pulled 30g of water. I have replaced 15g so far. Will replace the remaining later today as the RO unit makes it.
I'll be doing the water changes every couple days now as you suggest.
We did just tear our corner rocks out and remove the dead bodies.
I put fresh carbon in the reactor just a couple hours ago as well. I don't have GFO right now. I'll get some.
I can't use tap water. Our well water has crazy high phosphates and TDS. That's why we had to buy the RO/DI unit to begin with.
Nothing more is going into the tank for a long time.
It's going to take a long time financially to replace everything. Our losses now are easily over $500 in fish. It's not even done yet. I'm sure I'm going to lose a couple more yet, by the way they are looking.

Ok,
At this point, I highly recommend more water changes. Forget the Ich treatment, that's not your issue. There is something in your water, either Phosphates or Ammonia that could be bound and hidden from your test kits by all the Prime or other stuff you've been adding. The dead bodies that haven't been removed are now decomposing and causing a spike.
The only way to remove these pollutants is with large water changes.
I would do at least 20-30 gal every other day for a week or so.
Even if you don't wait for your R.O water to be made, go ahead and use tap water and just treat it with Prime. Just make sure the temp and salinity match your tank water.
I have been running reef tanks for almost 10 years now and have only recently switched over to R.O water, never had issues with negative effects on fish.
If you really don't want to use tap water, see if you can buy bottled R.O water somewhere, but don't wait!
Also, start running Carbon and phosphate media, in any type of filter, or reactor, whatever. I would use at least a cup of carbon and change it out every 3 days or so. The phosphate media doesn't need to be changed for at least a few weeks.
Do not add any other chemicals or treatments to your tank until things settle down.
You can get through this and minimize any more losses if you just keep things simple and don't skimp on the water changes.

Good luck

[beertech]

Great!
You've done everything you can now, just keep up the water changes and hope for the best.
I do understand how you feel, I just lost the entire contents of my 5 year old 135 gal full reef set-up due to a hasty move (marital seperation).
Everything died, crabs, snails, all fish and corals.
That's why Ive been harping on you so much about the water changes, that was a major factor in my crash when I moved the system. It's like a snowball effect, you lose one fish, then a snail or two, then some unseen bacterial die-off,.....
But now I've upgraded to a 220 and am rebuilding my reef.
It's going to be a long, expensive process, but well worth the effort!
Be patient and it will pay off.

Gord

[Dakotamay]

Gord, I'm so sorry to hear about your troubles too. Wow. Devastation like ours. Worse I believe.
I do thank you for all your words of advice as well as everyone else on here that offered up any suggestions and made offers to help.
I'll do another 25g water change on Monday, Wednesday and Friday. See how things go from there.
Yup, to the long expensive process to rebuild.  A couple of the fish we lost we had really grown attached to for their little personalities. We'll miss them.
The tank is looking pretty bare.
This hour by hour is taxing on the nerves.
I'll keep posting to let everyone know how it's going.

Great!
You've done everything you can now, just keep up the water changes and hope for the best.
I do understand how you feel, I just lost the entire contents of my 5 year old 135 gal full reef set-up due to a hasty move (marital seperation).
Everything died, crabs, snails, all fish and corals.
That's why Ive been harping on you so much about the water changes, that was a major factor in my crash when I moved the system. It's like a snowball effect, you lose one fish, then a snail or two, then some unseen bacterial die-off,.....
But now I've upgraded to a 220 and am rebuilding my reef.
It's going to be a long, expensive process, but well worth the effort!
Be patient and it will pay off.

Gord

[darkphreak]

Do a 50 gallon water change every 2 days, even with your well water. Whatever is in the tank needs to come out and you cant do that with marginal WC's. 25g WC changes only dilute... a few 50g will remove.

[bt]

Do a 50 gallon water change every 2 days, even with your well water. Whatever is in the tank needs to come out and you cant do that with marginal WC's. 25g WC changes only dilute... a few 50g will remove.

Considering we don't know what is in the water that is the problem, something in the well water might just add to it.

Agree with larger changes though.  I'd even consider going up to a 50% change as soon as enough replacement water is ready to go...

[Dakotamay]

Well. Lost another fish. A dispar anthias.  There are 8 fish left of 20.  We're seriously thinking of just shutting down the tank for now. Will require some more discussion and decision on the hubby and I's part. Right now, we think that's what we're going to do.

[NanoSF]

I know it must be frustrating, I also lost more than half of my tank contents on a tank transfer that went wrong and snowballed after a heater failure. IMO I would push through and do what you can. Water changes and carbon/GFO are good, but do as little of anything else as possible. Stability is your key now. If you go shutting it down the remaining fish don't stand much of a chance. If they are stressed (and I'm sure they are), transferring to a new tank at this point might just do them in. Plus who are you going to get to take fish from a situation like this? If you can handle the stress, I would stay the course. I felt like giving up too. Now everyday that I look at the two fish, one crab, one shrimp and handful of corals I saved through hard work, I am glad I stuck with it and got through it.

[Dakotamay]

Thanks NanoSF
It is incredibly frustrating. More heartbreaking really. To watch fish you've had for almost 2 years die before your eyes. I have just 2 left that I've had for 2 years. A marble scooter we call Scooty and a yellow watchman we call Herman. He's grouchy, just the name he got lol. No idea don't ask hahaha.
To watch so much time and love and caring for just die so fast. I don't have words to describe how we feel. The thought of rebuilding this.... Almost unbearable right now.
Anyways. I'm rambling.
We'll probably stick it out. Just going through the gamet of emotions right now I guess.

I know it must be frustrating, I also lost more than half of my tank contents on a tank transfer that went wrong and snowballed after a heater failure. IMO I would push through and do what you can. Water changes and carbon/GFO are good, but do as little of anything else as possible. Stability is your key now. If you go shutting it down the remaining fish don't stand much of a chance. If they are stressed (and I'm sure they are), transferring to a new tank at this point might just do them in. Plus who are you going to get to take fish from a situation like this? If you can handle the stress, I would stay the course. I felt like giving up too. Now everyday that I look at the two fish, one crab, one shrimp and handful of corals I saved through hard work, I am glad I stuck with it and got through it.

[NanoSF]

My crash happened over two days, maybe that was better, maybe it was worse. I was almost in tears picking fish out of the tank every couple of hours. Watching fish at the brink of death. It was heartbreaking. I stayed up all night. I was at Wal-Mart at 3:00AM getting some water conditioner because I didn't have enough RO/DI water and had to use tap water to keep up with the water changes. I changed probably ten times the volume of my tank over the span of the two days. I watched one of my fish get sucked up against powerheads he was so weak, but now he is one of the ones that lived. It was amazing that he was within minutes of death I'm sure, and he survived. He was a fighter and I wasn't going to just sit there and watch him die. This is a hobby, and a big part of it is perseverance. It will be hard but you can hang in there. You will feel good about what you are able to accomplish in the end.

If it was me I would start making tons and tons of water if you have the capability. I didn't read every post, but I see you are on a well, but have an RO/DI right? As long as that water tests reasonably well on the TDS meter, pump out as much as possible and change that water. I started out gradually, then I changed like crazy. Basically the water change water was identical to the water in the tank near the end so I could change water more quickly. The only reason you change small amounts of water is because your tank water is going to be different than the new water. Once you change enough water they are both the same so you can pump tons of water change water through the system eventually. That is assuming you are good at keeping temp and salinity very very close when changing.

Good luck.

[Dakotamay]

Thanks for the tips. I'm glad you were able to bring one back from the brink of death. That is something.
With regards to temp of new water, here's where I love my DA RKL. I have all 3 heaters on the same plugin. It's set to 78.5 with a hysterisis of .5. So the whole set up is always the same temp.
I heat it at first with another heater to bring it up to temp then it's maintained with the rest of the system. I will mention just for clarity to everyone. I keep a digital thermometer in the RO/DI water for accuracy with the RKL iTemp probe.
Yes, I know about running for the fish. I've made so many trips to Gananoque to Jim's (Forty Fathoms on the site here) in the last few weeks. It's 40 mins drive each way. Jim's even been good enough to stay up late and be there when I needed something. So Jim, if you're reading this. Thank you so much for all you do for us. Have done and will ever do in the future. You'll never know how much it's appreciated.
Speaking of appreciation. I'd like to extend some public acknowledgement to JD (username) Jeff here on the site. He lives right near me here and sent me a PM offering any help and support he might be able too.  It's amazing how helpful the salty community is. During this time I received offers from Rybren, Joeyt66 and JD (Jeff) of help with anything from equipment to media to aged water, tanks, etc... The list goes on to help me get our tank through this crash.
You guys are amazing people and I thank you all for all your help and support. Hopefully we will start to turn a corner on this and begin recovering soon.

My crash happened over two days, maybe that was better, maybe it was worse. I was almost in tears picking fish out of the tank every couple of hours. Watching fish at the brink of death. It was heartbreaking. I stayed up all night. I was at Wal-Mart at 3:00AM getting some water conditioner because I didn't have enough RO/DI water and had to use tap water to keep up with the water changes. I changed probably ten times the volume of my tank over the span of the two days. I watched one of my fish get sucked up against powerheads he was so weak, but now he is one of the ones that lived. It was amazing that he was within minutes of death I'm sure, and he survived. He was a fighter and I wasn't going to just sit there and watch him die. This is a hobby, and a big part of it is perseverance. It will be hard but you can hang in there. You will feel good about what you are able to accomplish in the end.

If it was me I would start making tons and tons of water if you have the capability. I didn't read every post, but I see you are on a well, but have an RO/DI right? As long as that water tests reasonably well on the TDS meter, pump out as much as possible and change that water. I started out gradually, then I changed like crazy. Basically the water change water was identical to the water in the tank near the end so I could change water more quickly. The only reason you change small amounts of water is because your tank water is going to be different than the new water. Once you change enough water they are both the same so you can pump tons of water change water through the system eventually. That is assuming you are good at keeping temp and salinity very very close when changing.

Good luck.

[kole18]

Believe me guys, you guys aren't alone to have this problem. I did it before too, so i know how it feels like to be on your situation. i know some of our co-ovas here too had same issue in the passed, i guess we all went through this processing until we catch up & learn our mistake. I know this is a big challenge for us, this isn't only about freshwater aquarium we're building our own marine salt water enviroment & we're dealing with a very sensitive animals. But again we're not all perfect it just a matter of time to correct our mistake. I feel sorry for your lost on everything that you have in your tank. Hopefully thing get back together again soon good luck wish all the best for your new tank

[Dakotamay]

Thanks Kole18

Believe me guys, you guys aren't alone to have this problem. I did it before too, so i know how it feels like to be on your situation. i know some of our co-ovas here too had same issue in the passed, i guess we all went through this processing until we catch up & learn our mistake. I know this is a big challenge for us, this isn't only about freshwater aquarium we're building our own marine salt water enviroment & we're dealing with a very sensitive animals. But again we're not all perfect it just a matter of time to correct our mistake. I feel sorry for your lost on everything that you have in your tank. Hopefully thing get back together again soon good luck wish all the best for your new tank

[Darth]

I've been reading this thread and my heart breaks, it seems the worse part is not knowing what the mistake was, if you knew you did someting that was kind of iffy it would make sense, but not knowing what caused this is what keeps you up at night, I really wish we had a greg house md for our reefs! He could diagnose what's wrong and save the day LOL. Seems like you are doing all you can, I kow you are making rodi as fast as you can but perhaps someone has some made they can "loan" you at least till you can get the water changes done, I unfortunatley don't have one or else I would offer, but I know some keep barrels of it just an idea

[brotherluv]

Within my first 3 months I had a crash that killed everything!  Devastating!  Summer kept the tank waaaaaay to hot...my bro is installing central air for me in the spring.  After the collapse I let it sit for 2 months before I added any fish. Any ich that may or may not have been there would surely have died and the water had been changed several times in that 2  month period. Good news is I've learned from my mistake and have moved forward!  I've learned a significant amount by following this thread as well. Super important as i can see myself upgrading my 55g to a larger tank in the next couple of years.  I hope you folks can get over the devastating loss, move forward and enjoy the inevitable success you'll have with such a strong support network here on ovas.  If you stick it out your future will hold much enjoyment in this hobby!

[Dakotamay]

Thanks for the kind offer if you would of had RO to offer.
Good news is. Jim Forte of Forty Fathoms in Gananonoque and a sponsor of this site under sponsor section gave me all he had made today about 60gals to help me out. 
I don't want to sound like I'm plugging for Jim or anything. But, guys you've never met someone that cares and will bend over backwards to help out his customers as Jim. I know it's a long drive from Ottawa, but if you ever need anything it may be worth your while to check him out. I deal exclusively with Jim and it's for that exact reason. He just cares and isn't in it to line his pockets.
Yes, I love House and I wish we had one for our tanks too. He'd save them just in the nick of time.
We'll move forward from here. Rebuild. It's all that's left to do.

I've been reading this thread and my heart breaks, it seems the worse part is not knowing what the mistake was, if you knew you did someting that was kind of iffy it would make sense, but not knowing what caused this is what keeps you up at night, I really wish we had a greg house md for our reefs! He could diagnose what's wrong and save the day LOL. Seems like you are doing all you can, I kow you are making rodi as fast as you can but perhaps someone has some made they can "loan" you at least till you can get the water changes done, I unfortunatley don't have one or else I would offer, but I know some keep barrels of it just an idea

[Dakotamay]

I'm very glad that you have learned from this thread. My suggestion when you upgrade. Keep the 55g and it's contents right where they are til the new tank is cycled. I wish I'd of done that.

Within my first 3 months I had a crash that killed everything!  Devastating!  Summer kept the tank waaaaaay to hot...my bro is installing central air for me in the spring.  After the collapse I let it sit for 2 months before I added any fish. Any ich that may or may not have been there would surely have died and the water had been changed several times in that 2  month period. Good news is I've learned from my mistake and have moved forward!  I've learned a significant amount by following this thread as well. Super important as i can see myself upgrading my 55g to a larger tank in the next couple of years.  I hope you folks can get over the devastating loss, move forward and enjoy the inevitable success you'll have with such a strong support network here on ovas.  If you stick it out your future will hold much enjoyment in this hobby!