Plant filters

[charlie]

Today i got a PM  asking me my thoughts on running a plant filter inline with their planted tank dosing via the estimative index, i have say i get this one every now & again.
As such i thought i should put out my thoughts on this
here goes
Firstly the Plant filter idea has being around for the longest while, it is used as a means of extracting nutrients such as Nitrates, phosphates from tanks that house fish that like plants as food etc & to help off set huge & constant water changes.
  the Estimative infertilizationtion method is built around the idea of control intentional over dosing nutrients so plants can uptake it when ever the need /desire arises as opposed to testing & finding out what is limiting then dosing to replenish, the suggested charts & target levels is very conservative in it`s dosing qty coupled with the weekly & even bi weekly water changes is very safe & will not hit levels to cause algae issues don`t take my word for it ask the man who created it ( Tom Barr)
So by now it`s easy to see that the age old plant filter directly contradicts the purpose of Estimative index not to mention the plants in your tank is the plant filter, even a non EI planted tank does not need it, sincmentionedtioed the planted tank is a plant filter, get the plants growing & have no issues.
Focus on the gas peddle - your lights & your plant biomass uptake , most issues with algae are directly of those 2 things & yes Carbon is the biggest Macro nutrient above NPK- No calcium = weak fragile bones- No carbon = weak fragile plant tissue that can`t grow so guess who is thanking you ? yes those  pesky little algae spores.
Regards
just my 2 cents

[dan2x38]

http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?action=gallery;su=user;cat=253;u=2243

Above is a link to the plant filters I ran for a long time. One was an aqua plant filter (hardest) the other a terrestrial plant (very easy). I understand the theory why it doesn't work but mine did. I used EI and at that time even DIY CO2, later I'd add pressurized. I did have a virtual jungle and grew everything I wanted to. I sold plants from this tank and it paid for it's self. I even gave plants away because there was to many clippings.

The troubles only started with algae on this tank when I took that advice of it as a plant filter detracting from the IE theory. After the plant filter was shut down it was a constant battle with one type of algae BBA mostly, occasionally hair algae and even had green spot algae on the glass. Never before did I have an issue with these.

I believe it would take care of the excess build-up a 50% water change missed helping to reduce the potential of algae break-outs. It gave me the extra source of nutrient uptake and since there is an overdose of ferts it cannot hurt anything. I had wanted to add the plant filter back but had already used some of the parts on another project.

A friend of mine here (he might chime in) set up a different version of a plant filter it looked like a brook over top his tank. He had a jungle in no time after initial setup. He used Excel and ferts as thought the system needed it. In fact he didn't even use the EI method. This was a 125g setup I was impressed ho quickly it took off and stayed flourishing! He later added CO2 mine in fact but it made little difference.

I also came to the conclusion regarding the EI method. It is a razors edge when trying to achieve a balance of growth vr. algae. Let your CO2 deplete, a deficiency in micro nutrients, prune to much, light's output depletes, etc. BANG algae! If I were to start a new planted tank I would not use the EI method again. I would consider a plant filter again though to control algae since mine was spotless ask those who saw it in person. The other thing a plant filter with terrestrial plants is very lovely. It adds to your room if you do it right.

I did on my last planted tank with pressurize CO2 hi-tech lighting add dry ferts by feel alone or sight I should say. Mind you I'd been doing it for a long prior to that. If my plants started to grow slowly I added some. If they started to grow to quickly I cut back. I would watch the plant and look for signs of deficiencies like holes in a leaf, yellow leaves, dropping leaves, stemy plants, etc. And I changed my lights every year per bulb which is very important and over looked way to often - a common algae cause seriously try it.

Conclusion there is no wrong way to have an aquarium if it is successful for you. Take the input given from experienced aquarists try things and see what works for you and your set-up. Even keep a log and make small changes or just one at a time. In the end find what suits your life style (time investment) and what is pleasing to your eye. Planted hi-tech tanks are time consuming if you want nice results. It can be very time consuming if you want it to be! But hey I liked that and some do as a well it is why we do it - its not work its a hobby.

There is more than one way to raise a bridge but you still have to follow the principles of bridge building. In this case some water, glass box, fish and nutrients - light, CO2 micro/macro ferts is your bridge. Good luck and enjoy try it and see for yourself.

[charlie]

After all that the issue is an imbalance in the tank, the plants in the growing tank is the filetr no need to over complicte easy ways of keeping plants.
I would be curious as to many of the million of plant hobbyist in this world subscribe to this , i know Tom Barr laughs at it.

I wonder if reducing the nutrient to the tank would reduce the available nutrients but wait that would be like extracting nutrient with a plant filter 
never try to re invent the wheel, it ads complication & takes away from enjoying the tank .
  Ther are basic fundamentls to keeping any tank , stick to the basics & don`t over complicate always delivers enjoyment.
Kind regards

[dan2x38]

It actually was simplifying it. Sure let Tom Barr and/or anyone laugh at it. I speak from my personal experience and something that was successful. I said I never had algae issues until I took the advice of the experts and shut down my plant filter. With in weeks BBA started to appear later on other types as well.

It is true that planted tanks especially hi-tech (not simple) are like balancing a cue ball on a knitting needle at times. In one week it can go to hell in a hand basket the board is full of example here and everywhere. We are always reinventing the wheel that is called progress for good or bad. It is the only way new methods are discovered. Just because one expert doesn't agree with a method doesn't mean it is not a good method. How many experts do we now look back on and were outcasts in history for their methods but we now have adopted those techniques and they are the norm?

I know Tom Barr is great and what he does is proven he's a guru in aquatic plants no argument there. But that doesn't mean there are not other ways to be successful. that is what makes this hobby so much fun there are many ways to do the same thing. As for keeping it simple there is nothing simple about a hi-tech planted tank. At least I never found it simplistic! The plant filter took care of it's self once in place. And the design was simple as could be.

When I had my plant filter set-up it looked awesome and worked very well that is what I am saying here. Once in place it did its job the end result was evident I had no algae until I shut it down. The filter ran for over a year so it was not an experiment of a week or two.

The whole premises is simplistic. Yes it uses ferts that is the idea. It also handled any NH3 spikes that might occur which does happen so fish were healthy. After the plant filter I occasionally lost fish but I do not remember that happening with the plant filter in place. The EI method has no way of dealing with a spike in NH3 that is certain. If your prune a few plants it can actually kill fish. In planted tanks it is well know that the bio-filter in the media is not over populated.

Like I said you can build a bridge in many ways but you need to follow the basic bridge building rules of physics in the end you still have a bridge. Is my bridge better than someone else's maybe - maybe not? I also said I would not use EI dosing because it was not so simplistic. It is to much of a razors edge and algae has to much of a chance to take hold if the balance is lost. It is just like bridges. A bridge is a bridge but one might be better for certain crossings and the other not depending on the traffic it will handle. Increase the traffic the bridge isn't equipped to handle the the change in load so it becomes unstable - the balance is lost so it collapses. The so called more complicated one handles the increase and remains standing.

In the end I am saying there might be a better way than Tom Barr's (OMG) but without having an open mind not trying it we may never find out... ;-) Does Tom Barr agree with that I do not know? Can we build a better wheel - Yupe! They do it every day it is called progress.

[charlie]

Firstly the Plant filter idea has being around for the longest while, it is used as a means of extracting nutrients such as Nitrates, phosphates from tanks that house fish that like plants as food etc & to help off set huge & constant water changes.

  The Estimative index fertilizationtion method is built around the idea of control intentional over dosing nutrients so plants can uptake it when ever the need /desire arises as opposed to testing & finding out what is limiting then dosing to replenish, the suggested charts & target levels is very conservative in it`s dosing qty coupled with the weekly & even bi weekly water changes is very safe & will not hit levels to cause algae issues don`t take my word for it ask the man who created it ( Tom Barr)

Is Paragraph 1 true or false
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Who is Tom Barr-Tom has maintained planted aquariums as a business for more than 10 years and has kept planted aquariums as a focus since 1989. First encounter with aquatic plants in 1977. Tom started his college education till after he was already keeping fully planted tanks. He has spoken at many societies and meetings over the years on aquatic plants, both marine and freshwater on a wide range of topics and has designed numerous devices to help aquarists.

Tom has done substantial lake management during 5 years and continues to work on many projects for larger Koi ponds, fungi control, lakes, wetland creation and also environmental consulting as a business.

Tom presently is a graduate student at UC Davis, California: testing of herbicides on aquatic invasive weeds and using bottom barriers to control aquatic weeds where chemicals cannot be used. Tom taught Biology the same Community College Classroom he once sat as a student.

Education:
Water Treatment [13 course]: Sacramento State
BS in Aquatic Biology: University of California, Santa Barbara
MS in Botany, University of Florida, Gainesville
In Progress: Ph.D. UC Davis, Plant Sciences

Tom writes for this web site and is the author and proponent of the Estimative Index aquatic plant fertilizing method.

Tom seeks understanding on the basic questions surrounding plant growth and control. His research addresses both herbicidal and non herbicidal methods as alternatives and using new approaches to solve aquatic weed control issues. These include both microphytes (algae generally), macrophytes (Plants and seaweeds) and fresh- and saltwater environments.

He has discussed many topics over the years on the web and in person with many people interested in plants and is involved with a number of local societies and a member of SFBAAPS in San Francisco, CA, the oldest and perhaps largest aquatic plant hobbyist group in the USA.

Various of Tom's articles have been published in numerous languages around the world and can also be found in Weed science journals, TFH, FAMA, TAG, AP and RA, AP and GGA.

[dan2x38]

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So how does that disprove what I said? I said I was successful using a plant filter. I said I found the EI method a razors edge to maintain a constant balance must be maintained weekly and you only need the search this or other forum/s to see the results of the EI method contributing to algae when the balance tip one way or another. I said there are many ways to accomplish the same thing. I also said I knew who Tom Barr was I've read a ton of his posts and documents as well as many other plant gurus even some who did not follow his methodology. And I also said he was a guru. There are hundreds of people in history in many professions, sports and hobbies who found other ways to do things instead of just one. Does that mean one was wrong and the other right? Of course not as long as both work. My conclusion was I would not solely use the EI method again because it was to easy to get off balance and it cause problems. I also said I would not hesitate to set-up another terrestrial plant filter because I was algae free for more than a year. The results of my efforts are in my gallery still and the freshwater builds. Plus all those who saw my system up close and in person.

[charlie]

my attempt is not to disprove anything you said it to highlight simple logic, the things does not work hand in hand
think simplicity , on method is intentional dosing in a controlled way the other defeats( plant filter) that purpose , is that hard to comprehend.
EI gives us a Tolerance leverage of +/- it`s all dependent on several factors such as light , type of plants, biomass etc, it is meant to be tweaked to each tank environment, so you tell us how a plant filter lends itself to this method, show us the guru who is a prominent of this, show us the science behind it?

[charlie]

my attempt is not to disprove anything you said it to highlight simple logic, the things does not work hand in hand
think simplicity , on method is intentional dosing in a controlled way the other defeats( plant filter) that purpose , is that hard to comprehend.
EI gives us a Tolerance leverage of +/- it`s all dependent on several factors such as light , type of plants, biomass etc, it is meant to be tweaked to each tank environment, so you tell us how a plant filter lends itself to this method, show us the guru who is a prominent of this, show us the science behind it?

BTW i don`t need to dispove your method , the info is out there, hobbyist will make their own assement with proper information.
I can drive to Montreal several ways, but i choose to take the 417 route  because it is the easiest route & time saving as well as enrgy effecient,how do drive to Montreal?
Cheers

[fischkopp]

An interesting thing this is, the plant filter. Isn't it a great idea to use plants to absorb nitrates that would otherwise accumulate in the tank? Yes, indeed. That is the reason why many of us keep planted tanks in the first place: it simply helps to improve water quality in a natural way.

Sometimes you have aquariums in which plants have no place, be it either that the fish will eat them, or dig them out, or it may just be to dark. Having such a plant filter on one of these tanks makes good sense.

However, for planted tanks, and more so these so called high tech setups, it is a little out of place. There is no leftover nitrogen that needs to be taken care of. In fact, you are dumping a whole lot of fertilizer into the tank to provide your aquatic plants with what they need. There is an excess only if you provide it and eventually you will have to tailor your dosing to what the plants in your tank require. Emersed plants will simply compete with those that are submersed, so you adjust your dosing accordingly. And it can look really nice if you have a palladium style setup. But there is no value of these plants in term of filtration unless they are know to absorb other bad things in the water column (don't know about that).

So if you so that you removed you "plant filter" and it cause some algea problems then the actual cause for that may be that you didn't adjust your dosing accordingly. It's as simply as that.

That's my two penny's on this topic. Hope this helps.

[exv152]

Just my two cents, but the EI method should not be like walking the razor's edge. It allows for both under and over dosing, and by doing 50-70% water changes it should reset everything. I've used it myself, and if used properly there should be no issues with algae, or very few issues. I've found that those who have issues usually don't understand the concept of balancing CO2/ferts/lights, and don't have enough plant bio mass, or have too many fish.

[charlie]

Just my two cents, but the EI method should not be like walking the razor's edge. It allows for both under and over dosing, and by doing 50-70% water changes it should reset everything. I've used it myself, and if used properly there should be no issues with algae, or very few issues. I've found that those who have issues usually don't understand the concept of balancing CO2/ferts/lights, and don't have enough plant bio mass, or have too many fish.

Exactly my point

EI gives us a Tolerance leverage of +/- it`s all dependent on several factors such as light , type of plants, biomass etc, it is meant to be tweaked to each tank environment

Regards

[dan2x38]

I do not speak from what I read or saw others doing but what I did and was successful with for many years. I know the EI method and used it with success. I also understand it totally!!! How many folks out there using EI dosing have ended up fighting algae? Let's hear from them the forum is full of those examples I remember reading them. In fact I recall a lot and some of the planted tank big players here posting regarding their own battles with algae while using EI dosing.

Listen what I said, "It worked for me". It worked for me I say because there was an extra export system for any excess ferts not used or removed by water changes weekly. You have a bad week and EI can bite you in the ass you cannot deny that. Miss that your CO2 pressure is dropping and you need a refill, the PAR of those pricey prized lights you bought drop in a couple bulbs or even one, you prune a little to much, a fish dies unnoticed, etc BANG algae takes hold now the battle is on. With a plant filter running I had the extra available avenue for exporting any NO3 build up has well has PO4 and you do your regular 50% - 75% water change but that week it isn't enough you get algae plain and simple. With a plant filter there it would absorb the excess and I had NO algae out breaks. Oh BTW I am not dumb of course I reduced the dosing after removing my plant filter and at first it was fine but in less than a month things became a constant battle against BBA. OH and when there was low ferts to feed the plant filter it grew slowly that was all.

I also had 3 hi-tech tanks not all had a plant filter only one did. That one was algae free no cursed BBA. To me and this is my experience EI dosing was a razors edge and I wouldn't follow that methodology solely again. A modified version of EI and PMPD with a plant filter would likely be my approach if I started another planted hi-tech tank. But I actually might go one better plus simpler and use a soil substrate along the lines of a Walstad system - maybe?

[charlie]

you should really let Amano know about this combo method of yours,he has a staff that takes of his several tanks daily & still encounter algae.
Oh & his method does not dose NPK

Cheers

[charlie]

my attempt is not to disprove anything you said it to highlight simple logic, the things does not work hand in hand
think simplicity , on method is intentional dosing in a controlled way the other defeats( plant filter) that purpose , is that hard to comprehend.
EI gives us a Tolerance leverage of +/- it`s all dependent on several factors such as light , type of plants, biomass etc, it is meant to be tweaked to each tank environment, so you tell us how a plant filter lends itself to this method, show us the guru who is a prominent of this, show us the science behind it?

??

[charlie]

Here is a little something to think about, i can`t post the full content since it is in the paid section of the Barrreport & as such is not allowed to copy & paste
A member asked Tom Barr if over dosing their tank x twice the recommended dose as per EI would cause algae
The answer in short was no if all other parmaters are non limiting
he closed by saying
'Bottom line and put in a simple way: the goal is to grow plants well, so focus on the plant's needs, not the algae.
There are FEW old timer plant folks who tell people differently.
It's deceptively simple'
Cheers
I remember your early days when you switched from PMDD to EI , it is well documented on the forum & PM`s.

[charlie]

Here is a little something to think about, i can`t post the full content since it is in the paid section of the Barrreport & as such is not allowed to copy & paste
A member asked Tom Barr if over dosing their tank x twice the recommended dose as per EI would cause algae
The answer in short was no if all other parmaters are non limiting
he closed by saying
'Bottom line and put in a simple way: the goal is to grow plants well, so focus on the plant's needs, not the algae.
There are FEW old timer plant folks who tell people differently.
It's deceptively simple'
Cheers

I thnik all the info is out there to the few who have PM`d asking my take on running "plant filters" with a fertilized planted via EI or for that matter any regiment,  you know my take on it, the logic of a plant filter is not applicable to a Planted tank, they have a place in the other areas of aquarium keeping, like a guy name Tom Barr says focus on plant growth & not algae.
Enjoy over & out.
Errol

[dan2x38]

I say the same thing - it worked for me and very well! The pictures tell the story and the first hand account of all those who came to my place to buy trimmings from that tank and saw it. They all commented on how clean it was and asked how I controlled algae. So I guess because I am no published I am wrong? I am certain there is more than one way to create a successful tank but maybe I'm wrong there too? The bottom line is I can debate this all day you will never see my point of view so I rest my case. It was interesting though.