15G AIO

[bizfromqc]

So here I go, trying my hand out at my first saltwater/reef tank. Any and all recommendations, suggestions or "what the h3ck are you thinking" are welcome :-)

I've been doing a lot of research but I'm a total saltwater newbie so I'll need some advice along the road and planning on you guys to steer me in the right direction.

Given the space and money I have to allocate to this project, I decided to go with a smaller AIO tank. I like the DIY route as well so this should be a fun project and a great learning experience.

I plan to use this thread sort of as a blog documenting my way into this build.

Here's what I'm planning to do.

Tank

15G AIO tank (24 x 12 x 12)

• Sump area (4 x 12 x 12) for about 2.5G
• Display area (20 x 12 x 12) for about 12.5G

Sump area

3 compartments (water flows from 1 to 3) of equal size (4"). Looking form the side of the tank, it should something like this (thanks to ben_jamin for the drawing)

• #1 mechanical/chemical filtration (floss, purigen and chemi-pure elite)
• #2 biological filtration/refugium (cheato)
• #3 pump/return section (MJ1200)

The MJ1200 return is hooked up to flex tubing, then to a barb/slip elbow that is then connected into the slip portion on the bulkhead. I've opted for the slip on the internal side of the bulkhead to allow for easier swap/cleaning of the pump.

I would like to build a media rack out of eggcrate that can house the 3 media and can be easily inserted/removed/cleaned.

I also plan on using a 50W heater that will either go in #2 or #3 depending on room available.

Display area

Using loc-line components, the return will be split in two to better disperse the flow and minimize dead areas. Got the components and they'll be hooked up that way.



From left to right

• 1/2" NPT connector
• 1/2" Y fitting
• 2 x 6" segments
• 2 x 1 1/4" flare nozzle

Lighting

24" AquaticLife 2x24W T5HO bulbs (one 10k, one actinic)



I plan on having softies and some LPS in there and since the tank is only 12" deep, I assume that the 2 light fixture will be enough for now. If it becomes an issue, I might get a second one or supplement with LEDs.

Fish and Inverts

If possible, I'd like:

• Interesting cleanup crew (snails, crabs, shrimp)
• 1-2 Goby and/or firefish
• 1-2 Clowns

I know the tank is on the small side and I need to do more research on what I can put in there and who won't/will behave together. But my two girls would love a nemo in there (Doesn't everybody start with one of these? LOL)

Corals

I'd like to stick to easier more tolerant corals to begin with and get familiar with that side of the hobby before taking on anything more challenging and demanding. So to begin with, my short list would consist of:

• Mushroom and Leather corals
• Star/Button Polyps corals
• Finger Leather corals
• Open Brain corals
• Bubble and Moon corals
• Fox corals

Again, space is limited so there's no way I can get all of those but I'd like a good mix of color and shapes to make for an interesting tank. I'll also have to research compatibility with potential fish/inverts. There's also the big question of what is available and of course... price.

Questions

So this is what I have planned for now. I still have some things to figure out/research/get advive on and they are:

• Should I make the sump area bigger or is the 4" going to be enough?
• What's everyone's opinion on using Purigen and CPE?
• Live Sand and Live Rock in the sump or display side only is ok?
• Is the lighting sufficient for soft corals and some LPS?
• Is the flow from the split output of the MJ1200 sufficient or should I look into getting another powerhead?

Things to do:

I'll update this section of the post as things progress.

• Get the tank
• Get the light fixture
• Get the MJ1200
• Get the 50W heater
• Get the acrylic for sump section
• Get the bulkhead, loc-line components and tubing
• Build the sump area
• Build the media rack
• Paint/Vinyl the tank background and sump area
• Get cheato
• Get the live rock and live sand
• Build aquascape
• Cycle the tank
• Research fish and inverts
• Research corals
• Build stocking list
• Get fish and inverts
• Get corals
• Enjoy tank!

Wow, that was a long post... 

[Hookup]

WHAT THE HECK ARE YOU THINKING!   (just kidding)

One change I would make is in your sump drop the mechanical filtration design you have and go with a filter-sock design.  I would also upsize enough to get a protein skimmer on there if possible. no biggie if not.

    Should I make the sump area bigger or is the 4" going to be enough?

Bigger = more water volumes = dilution of anything bad = slower speed of things going bad = sooner you can catch and correct problems.  (lol @ sillly equation)

    What's everyone's opinion on using Purigen and CPE?

No idea, never used it.  I bet you'll get told to drop it pretty much unanimously.

    Live Sand and Live Rock in the sump or display side only is ok?

Yes to both.  Both have associated draw-backs that maintenance will take care of... so go with whatever you like IMO.

    Is the lighting sufficient for soft corals and some LPS?

I'll leave that for those who know about different lights... i do not.

    Is the flow from the split output of the MJ1200 sufficient or should I look into getting another powerhead?

would be just fine IMO... maybe even too much... however, head pressure really hurts MJ pumps.. if you're lifting the water a few feet, 4+ you might need a different pump.

[bt]

With corals, you may want to make space for a nano skimmer.  I'm not too familiar with running nanos though, but I can ask around.

For livestock, if you go with clowns I'd suggest Ocellaris (AKA False Perc) and no other fish (still have a clean up crew though).  Even then there might be some aggression issues.  As it is, when our pair of Perculas start to fight, they do so over a much larger area than 15G

Some of the smaller gobies would be good choices as well, but again watch the numbers.  Firefish is a good choice, but remember that they're jumpers.

Mushrooms are dead easy corals and great for beginners, and can bring a good variety of colours.  Watch out with Star/Button polyps - they can easily go from "easy to keep" to "#%@&@$ weed".  I personally wouldn't put them in that small of a tank because they couldn't be easily isolated in the aquascaping.

I'd see how your water flow is before deciding on what coral, though.  It may be too high for some of the things on your current list.  Depending on that, everything else you've got on your list looks decent.

If you get clowns, think about getting something for them to host in - the bubble coral could work well, and hammer, frogspawn or torch corals are also possibilities (ours LOVE our hammer colony).  Star/Button polyps could work nicely too, if you decide to get that.  Clowns will try to host in just about anything (I've seen them try it with a PVC tube), it's nice when they've got something they can host IN, instead of just on.

As for your questions:

-Make the sump as big as it needs to be for your equipment.  Bigger isn't better for an AIO sump, since it's taking away from the display space and not actually adding water volume.

-No Purigen or CPE, IMO, unless you have some quality issues.  Having space in the sump for something like that is a good idea though.

-Maybe live rock rubble in the sump, but no sand.  If space is an issue, display side is fine

-I think you'll be okay with that light for softies and LPS, but others here have more lighting expertise than I do.

-MJ1200 is more likely to be too much flow than not enough.  Try it out though, I think the split on it could put the flow in a sweet spot.

[bizfromqc]

...
Bigger = more water volumes = dilution of anything bad = slower speed of things going bad = sooner you can catch and correct problems.  (lol @ sillly equation)
...

My question was more related to the ratio that the sump area takes in the whole tank. I was thinking 4in would be enough for the equipment, cheato and media but maybe more/less is better, who knows...

would be just fine IMO... maybe even too much... however, head pressure really hurts MJ pumps.. if you're lifting the water a few feet, 4+ you might need a different pump.
...

Head pressure wouldn't be a real problem here since the pump is in the tank (AIO design) and not in a sump so head pressure is minimal/null (couple inches at the most).

Thanks for the info,
Eric

[bt]

Head pressure wouldn't be a real problem here since the pump is in the tank (AIO design) and not in a sump so head pressure is minimal/null (couple inches at the most).

http://reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator

My estimates based on what you've said, you'd lose around 1/3 of the throughput to head loss.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing here, as you'd still be turning over the volume 13-14 times an hour instead of 20+.

[bizfromqc]

With corals, you may want to make space for a nano skimmer.  I'm not too familiar with running nanos though, but I can ask around.

For livestock, if you go with clowns I'd suggest Ocellaris (AKA False Perc) and no other fish (still have a clean up crew though).  Even then there might be some aggression issues.  As it is, when our pair of Perculas start to fight, they do so over a much larger area than 15G

Some of the smaller gobies would be good choices as well, but again watch the numbers.  Firefish is a good choice, but remember that they're jumpers.

Mushrooms are dead easy corals and great for beginners, and can bring a good variety of colours.  Watch out with Star/Button polyps - they can easily go from "easy to keep" to "#%@&@$ weed".  I personally wouldn't put them in that small of a tank because they couldn't be easily isolated in the aquascaping.

I'd see how your water flow is before deciding on what coral, though.  It may be too high for some of the things on your current list.  Depending on that, everything else you've got on your list looks decent.

If you get clowns, think about getting something for them to host in - the bubble coral could work well, and hammer, frogspawn or torch corals are also possibilities (ours LOVE our hammer colony).  Star/Button polyps could work nicely too, if you decide to get that.  Clowns will try to host in just about anything (I've seen them try it with a PVC tube), it's nice when they've got something they can host IN, instead of just on.

As for your questions:

-Make the sump as big as it needs to be for your equipment.  Bigger isn't better for an AIO sump, since it's taking away from the display space and not actually adding water volume.

-No Purigen or CPE, IMO, unless you have some quality issues.  Having space in the sump for something like that is a good idea though.

-Maybe live rock rubble in the sump, but no sand.  If space is an issue, display side is fine

-I think you'll be okay with that light for softies and LPS, but others here have more lighting expertise than I do.

-MJ1200 is more likely to be too much flow than not enough.  Try it out though, I think the split on it could put the flow in a sweet spot.

That's two votes for for skipping the purigen and CPE now, should I then make the refugium/cheato area bigger and the first chamber smaller then?

After doing a lot of online reading, it seems to be 50/50 split between using a skimmer or not. A lot of people are saying that with a tank that size and weekly 15-20% WC a skimmer is not needed. I would love to not have to use one to keep a clean and streamline tank (with cover, wires hidden, etc...)

The reason I was planning on using the MJ1200 was that I already owned one   Someone reported using a MJ1200 on a 10G on another forum and that was too much flow and recommended an MJ900. I'm hoping the MJ1200 will be right on the money since I'm going with the 15G and splitting the output, we'll see. I may have to get a smaller one but that's not an issue.

Tons of good info, thanks for chiming in.

[bizfromqc]

http://reefcentral.com/index.php/head-loss-calculator

My estimates based on what you've said, you'd lose around 1/3 of the throughput to head loss.  Which isn't necessarily a bad thing here, as you'd still be turning over the volume 13-14 times an hour instead of 20+.

What's the recommended turn over? Do you have a recommendation for a more suitable pump for the design I have in mind?

[bt]

Yes, try the 1200 first.  If you find during setup it's blowing the sand around no matter how you adjust the outputs, that's when you go to a 900.

A decent way to test the flow in a tank that size during setup is to throw an airstone in beside the pump input.  The micro-bubbles should be visible enough to judge the flow patterns.

A friend of mine ran a 29G for quite awhile without a skimmer, but added one probably 6-8 months ago.  I'll ask them if it made a big difference.

I'll think a bit more on your sump setup, and get back to you on tweaking it.

What's the recommended turn over? Do you have a recommendation for a more suitable pump for the design I have in mind?

Depends what you want to keep.  But the number I hear most often is 10 times per hour through the sump, and 10-40 in the tank (including the 10 through the sump, so 0-30 extra).  Since all of your circulation will run through the sump, anywhere from 10-20 should be fine.  It's mostly SPS coral that wants the higher flow.

[Hookup]

sorry, miss read.. isee the sump is part of the 15g tank...   4" seems more of a visual question however things like evap might be an issue in a smaller space.

that said, the 1200MJ would potentially be too much flow in that small of a tank... others with smaller systems might have better expeience than I to comment.

[Darth]

I would personally forgo the sump to begin with give the fish more swimming room and use an aqua clear HOB for a fuge, and get a nano skimmer I used to run a 5 gal nano reef, I would do 80% water changes every 2 weeks no skimmer just a koralia nano for flow

[shannon333]

I'm with Darth on your Sump as part of your tank(forget the sump and go with a filter, you can do so much more inside the tank), considering your tank is only 15 g?
I've a 15 g reef and its doing great!! I use an aqueon filter (medium), heater, thermometer and two power heads(water pumps). I've got lots of live rock in there, 2 clown fish, 2 emerald crabs, lots of coral(polyps, mushrooms, frogspawn, bubble coral,etc) and a red starfish. It works. I've had it going for a few months now.
If your looking for advice, I'd ask the two guys at MarineScape. They're motto, "slow is better". I've also read alot of posts from Fishtails, AquaValley and Rays, they give alot of great advice also. (especially this guy AZ, just go to thier forums and read.)
IMO, I'd talk to Keith at MarineScape, he'll tell you what and what not to do. (AZ being the second person to go to. although all four places give great advice.)
BUT NEVER BELIEVE ANYTHING OR ALL (maybe some) OF THE THINGS YOU READ ONLINE!!!!
I mean really, freshwater mollies used to get rid of hair algae for a sw problem??? (SEA HARE)(and I was going to go buy some mollies)lol
....and cleaning your gravel every week(lesson learnt)
....etc,etc.

[shannon333]

Let me rephrase the above.
Meant go talk to Keith about livestock and coral. (and/or your tank. But you pretty much got great advice from all of the above people. Its just personal preference now as to how you want to go.
Have fun with it :0)

[JetJumper]

Nothing wrong with mollies for HA   Lots of people do it.. Plus mollies can breed in SW as well so you can sell SW mollies

I mean really, freshwater mollies used to get rid of hair algae for a sw problem??? (SEA HARE)(and I was going to go buy some mollies)lol

[shannon333]

You know how long it would take to aclimate freshwater mollies to sw?!! ...you'd have to use a slow drip method for a week, and if they survive your lucky. Plus mollies leave alot of waste, which would add to the problem (feeding the hair algae that your trying to get rid of). Mollies don't work. Anyone thats tried it will tell you that. Thats not my opinion, i've read, & read  & talk to knowledable people.

All that work, and it might work if the fish survive and if the fish actually eat the hair algae(it all depends on the fish) :0)
Or you can go buy a Sea Hare, all they do is eat hair algae

[shannon333]

Jetjumper, that wasn't meant to be harsh, even though it sound like it(I reread that).
.....I just assume (for me anyways) go buy a sea hare that is known to eat hair algae than to take my chances on mollies that could or wouldn't eat the algae. and even if they do eat hair algae, you'd still be taking two steps back feeding the algae with fish waste that mollies produce, which is twice the amount of any other fish.

...don't tangs eat hair algae? ...read that somewhere. (that could be wrong)

[bizfromqc]

Let's not turn this thread into what one should use or not to get rid of hair algea please...

Personally, I've received and given lots of advice online related to this hobby (not SW) and many other hobbies. Dismissing advice because it was received "online" is just ludicrous. Like everything else, you have to take some and leave some, even from the alleged "experts". Whether it's online or in-person is irrelevant really.

I appreciate the advice given here about the HOB but will probably stick to the original design mainly because I don't want to have anything sitting outside the tank. I may have to revisit the stocking list to accomodate the tank but I'm ok with that. Having a skimmer and an additional power head is not an option now budget wise. I plan to maintain water quality with proper maintenance and WCs.

One change I'm considering though is having the sump section at the back of the tank and not on the side (giving more horizontal viewing space and swimming room), similarly to the way bio-cubes are designed.

Nice one about the Tang, maybe I should have a couple in my 15G tank. Oh wait, can't do that 

[bizfromqc]

Yes, try the 1200 first.  If you find during setup it's blowing the sand around no matter how you adjust the outputs, that's when you go to a 900.

A decent way to test the flow in a tank that size during setup is to throw an airstone in beside the pump input.  The micro-bubbles should be visible enough to judge the flow patterns.

A friend of mine ran a 29G for quite awhile without a skimmer, but added one probably 6-8 months ago.  I'll ask them if it made a big difference.

I'll think a bit more on your sump setup, and get back to you on tweaking it.

Depends what you want to keep.  But the number I hear most often is 10 times per hour through the sump, and 10-40 in the tank (including the 10 through the sump, so 0-30 extra).  Since all of your circulation will run through the sump, anywhere from 10-20 should be fine.  It's mostly SPS coral that wants the higher flow.

Neat idea with the airstone. Hopefully flow won't be an issue with the split output to alleviate the problem. Otherwise, I'll just buy a 900 and wrig something up with the 1200 for my FW WCs (why I originally got the MJ1200).

I'm planning to get the tank and acrylic this week-end and start the build, can't wait.

[Hookup]

I think this is a perfect example of differing opinions and approaches to success in SW... which is why I've always maintained that you cannot follow-blindly anyone's advise... you need to know a lot about the system to maintain it.... SW is a lot of work.

I see the hair-algae thing and all i think is... Why not fix the root cause of the algae... (just for a third point of view on the same debate)...

Understanding of the nutrient load, nitrogen cycle, nutrient removal methods, photosynthesis, fish & invert compatibility, coral nutrition, flow, lighting, water chemistry etc all needs to be accounted for to be successful... at least in my opinion... 

is it daunting, yes... and fun... 

SW is about creating balance in an unbalanced changing system...

[salvini55]

I like your plans, two suggestions/pointers, evaporation will run that return section dry at least once a day if not more so an auto top off system is a good plan or due diligence when it comes to that. Ditch the CPE an Puregin and get a filter sock and put some quality activated carbon in there. That should offset the need for a skimmer.

[shannon333]

bizfromqc, let me know how the sump at the back of the tank works.
I have the same idea(different project) for something like that (breeder tank )

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