ATTENTION: CHANGES TO OVAS WEBSITE AND CLASSIFIEDS

[Stussi613]

Why are you so upset that they are making money (while saving members money) unless you are representing the sponsors instead of the members of the club. The sponsors didn't elect the executive - the members did!

I'm not upset that they are making money, I just think if you're using the site to generate revenue for your "hobby" business then it shouldn't be hard to pay $20 for a membership that also saves you money at the sponsors. The fact that people can have all the benefits of membership without paying for it goes against the very concept you're trying to espouse by saying the sponsors should be happy that there's more traffic on the site.  Also, it's not as though people selling in the classifieds are selling things cheaper to members than they do on kijiji and UsedOttawa, for the most part. They are posting identical adds and prices on OVAS, but to a very directed audience, for free.

I'm not of the mind that closing the classifieds excludes potential members, more that it stops non-members from recieving all the benefits that members pay for.

To be clear I'm not on the exec at the moment, nor do I speak for them.  I've put my name up for the library chair in order to help my club, but I have no influence on decisions made by the club, nor was I party to this one.

[Peekay]

A membership is $15.  Less than the cost of a bottle of Prime, a madagascar fern,  or 10 neons.

You sell one old AC filter, you've paid for it.

I was a non-member.  I met a member to make a purchase from his ad ($150 in his pocket!)... after the fishroom tour, the long and pleasant enthusiast conversation, and subsequent PMs to offer me free stuff he thought I might want, I was sold on the idea of joining.  

And this idea of "I don't 'use' the club"... my life is nuts too.  I haven't made it to more than one meeting.  But I USE this website.  I USE the volunteers that run it.   I USE the classifieds to buy.  And that is worth the 'drop in the 60Gallon' sum of $15 to me.  

[Darth]

I use the forum here, and it has been stated that ovas is more than just this forum, I am not a member of the club, anymore due to personal reasons, and yes $20 for a membership isnt that much, and lately in my opinion this has become more of a power battle for admins, yes I use the classifieds from time to time, but I also use kijiji usedottawa craigslist as well, and I do not have to pay to list there, those sites are paid by selling advertisements same as the sponsers pay to advertise here. I have also seen sponsers use the other sites as well to sell their wares as well as on facebook. I just don't understand with all these other free sites around why would anyone want to pay to use the classifieds, for members who pay to support the club, which helps fund guest speakers, bbq the auction and what not, thats great, I personally have never attended any of these nor do I intend to. It's just a personal decision I have decided on. That being said I don't see the point in having to pay to sell stuff on here, yes as many others have put it $20 you sell something you make your money back, well on other sites, I can sell it for free, so in that case I am ahead $20, which I can then use to buy what I want from others and sponsers. I have been a member on the forum for  along time, and I enjoy reading about things, and often find myself reading things totally unrealted to the water world such as the buying and selling and renting and moving threads, they were thoroughly enjoyable, but again this is something I can do for free. I just personally feel the direction this "club" is going is sort of for lack of a better phrase extorion pay or you can't sell stuff here. The classifieds bought me here the people made me stay. But as I said there are a million other forums out there that can give the same info I can find on here and I can go there for free. Being a member may have its privelages (none of which I experienced when I was a member) but to me to post in the classifieds is not a privelage worth paying for.

[Stussi613]

I use the forum here, and it has been stated that ovas is more than just this forum, I am not a member of the club, anymore due to personal reasons, and yes $20 for a membership isnt that much, and lately in my opinion this has become more of a power battle for admins, yes I use the classifieds from time to time, but I also use kijiji usedottawa craigslist as well, and I do not have to pay to list there, those sites are paid by selling advertisements same as the sponsers pay to advertise here. I have also seen sponsers use the other sites as well to sell their wares as well as on facebook. I just don't understand with all these other free sites around why would anyone want to pay to use the classifieds, for members who pay to support the club, which helps fund guest speakers, bbq the auction and what not, thats great, I personally have never attended any of these nor do I intend to. It's just a personal decision I have decided on. That being said I don't see the point in having to pay to sell stuff on here, yes as many others have put it $20 you sell something you make your money back, well on other sites, I can sell it for free, so in that case I am ahead $20, which I can then use to buy what I want from others and sponsers. I have been a member on the forum for  along time, and I enjoy reading about things, and often find myself reading things totally unrealted to the water world such as the buying and selling and renting and moving threads, they were thoroughly enjoyable, but again this is something I can do for free. I just personally feel the direction this "club" is going is sort of for lack of a better phrase extorion pay or you can't sell stuff here. The classifieds bought me here the people made me stay. But as I said there are a million other forums out there that can give the same info I can find on here and I can go there for free. Being a member may have its privelages (none of which I experienced when I was a member) but to me to post in the classifieds is not a privelage worth paying for.

My only argument with what you have written is that the selling sites you mentioned are all ad supported, by generic ads. Most people who use the OVAS website would likely not want the site cluttered with ads for various bogus pills and remedies.

[bt]

1. Membership has been extremely low recently. The dip coincided with the time the classifieds were opened. The club needs members and membership dues to sustain financial stability and fund the club's activities.

It may cost the club some members instead.  I'm re-considering renewing.  I probably still will, but this has introduced doubts.  Especially since this seems to be an issue that keeps coming around.

I doubt there are very many people who's dividing line between buying a membership or not is that they didn't need one to post in the classifieds.

2. OVAS is a site with a very directed target audience: aquatic hobbyists. The benefit of having your products exposed to this market is very desirable, and many would agree the classified can prove to be quite profitable. OVAS and its members pay for the fees to maintain the website, it is only fair that its members receive benefits as well.

Absolutely!  But blocking non-members from posting classifieds isn't the way to do it.  Members are buyers too, and this change negatively impacts them.

So I absolutely disagree that this change will benefit members as a whole.  Perhaps some individuals, who now will have less compeititon in the classifieds, will benefit.  The buyers (also members, remember) will suffer from less selection.  And then the buyers will go elsewhere, and the benefits the sellers see from less competition will start to dry up, because there will be fewer buyers.

Limiting the number of the number of classifieds a non-member can post over a given time would be better than blocking them.  Or one at a time.  Or make new classifieds appear to members first, before showing up to non-members a bit letter.

3. Moderation of the classifieds has been an issue, and the issue becomes much greater when the classifieds are open to everyone. Our moderators are all volunteers. We need these volunteers to maintain the site. If the workload is far too heavy for them, the site would go to shambles. This will help make their 'jobs' easier.

While human moderation will always be required, there better solutions than this.  Requiring a certain time and activity commitment before things can be posted by non-members is better than completely stopping them.  Have a short-list of rules on the posting page for accounts of non-members (or everyone, as members have been known to cross the guidelines too), that could help.  About the only thing more damaging than this decision would have been hiding the classifieds completely from non-members, or removing the classifieds completely.

4. OVAS club does not equal OVAS website. We are a social group, we have monthly meetings, we have additional events, and we interact. The current executive plans to spend more time and effort on the club's program, which is made easier when there are fewer web issues to handle. We encourage everyone to come out and join us, sell your items at meetings, auctions, etc. and interact with the other members in order to get the most out of your OVAS experience.

This again?  You're right that club does not equal website.  But there are plenty of club members who consider the website to be their prime use of the club.  Reducing it's usefulness is going to drive those people away - it is not going to encourage them to come out to meetings.  Use a carrot, not a stick.

[exv152]

If memberships are down then it would seem obvious more needs to be done to encourage inclusion rather than exclusion. Limiting the classifieds to one group over another is exclusionary.

[Hookup]

Here are some reasons why the decision was made.

1. Membership has been extremely low recently. The dip coincided with the time the classifieds were opened. The club needs members and membership dues to sustain financial stability and fund the club's activities.

2. OVAS is a site with a very directed target audience: aquatic hobbyists. The benefit of having your products exposed to this market is very desirable, and many would agree the classified can prove to be quite profitable. OVAS and its members pay for the fees to maintain the website, it is only fair that its members receive benefits as well.

3. Moderation of the classifieds has been an issue, and the issue becomes much greater when the classifieds are open to everyone. Our moderators are all volunteers. We need these volunteers to maintain the site. If the workload is far too heavy for them, the site would go to shambles. This will help make their 'jobs' easier.

4. OVAS club does not equal OVAS website. We are a social group, we have monthly meetings, we have additional events, and we interact. The current executive plans to spend more time and effort on the club's program, which is made easier when there are fewer web issues to handle. We encourage everyone to come out and join us, sell your items at meetings, auctions, etc. and interact with the other members in order to get the most out of your OVAS experience.

In short: Financial, benefit to members, lessen burden on moderation team.

To answer other questions...

People running for the exec can't really express what they want to do since all decisions are made by the entire group. Members do however have the ability to state what they wish to do with the club at the May meeting for voting, and other members can ask them questions. Our exec is all voted in.

Sponsors have generally been in favour of closed classifieds as well, not worrying about page traffic, but rather pleased with less ad clutter.

Use kijiji, use UsedOttawa. We encourage it. The OVAS site is run by the OVAS club which represents its members. In one's membership fees includes the privilege of posting ads with a narrow target audience with minimal clutter.

Hopefully this clears some up.

Thanks.  Its about what I expected.  I'm sorry for my wall-of-text response, but you brought out at least a 1/2 dozen points, and several i wanted to comment on and ask for clarification and additional transparency.

CLASSIFIEDS: If taxing the classified ads is the direction, I'm good... I never really cared either way... However, I do care about transparency in decision making, something that is often lacking.

MODERATION: I haven't seen any advertisements asking for help with moderation since the initial call, which was some time ago (12+ months ago? not sure)... how would we know there was help needed if none was asked for? - please address.

BENEFIT TO MEMBERS: I see how this makes it a benefit to becoming a member.  But is it a benefit for existing members?  if so, how?  (and therefore, it's not a reason, its just a sales-pitch to drive more memberships and see financial below)

FINANCIALLY:  How big was this dip?  How big is the issue?  Are we talking 5 less members, a 10% drop or 50 less members, a 200% drop?

SPONSORS: I find the position at odds with the stated direction of the club.  OVAS = Meetings/Events and not the FORUM.  SPONSORS = FORUM only, they are never at Events/Meetings


I know this will leave a bad-taste in some peoples mouths, however I think another interpretation could be that OVAS "the club" offers too little value as a club to sustain itself without the classified ads being a pay-for type service.  It's not able to stay alive, financially, and pay for the non-forum parts of the club without the profit from membership fees related to "targeted classified ads" and sponsor fees ( aka forum only generated money).

Just a thought, as I know that this DID leave a very bad taste in some members/and potential members mouths... Membership might have dipped as it became clear that the "forum only" people were being treated as second-class club-members and that there was no value-add recognized from web/forum only contributions.   I know of a dozen (yes, 12 by name) people that are "forum only" and non-paying because they have been told "The forum is no the club".  They don't want to do events or meetings, so why pay to join the club if the forum is not the club... and they dont.  (affected several missed renewals as well and from what i can see will affect several more this season)


In short, I think you can get at least 1/2 dozen memberships, maybe all 12 or more, simply by finding tangible ways of making the forum an important and meaningful part of the club and that might address the financial problem... (seems to be in-line with several of the more vocal posts in this thread and others)



In interests of keeping it simple, the three questions embedded in the above that I was hoping some one would find the time to address:
1) Was there a call for moderation help since the original call 12+ months ago?

2) What is the benefit to current members of locking down the classifieds this way?

3) What was the membership total prior to the change, what was it after the "dip"?  How big is the problem?

[Darth]

just to add some more of my 2 cents, if you are looking for members why not promote the club more, explain where the money goes, besides the forum, yes there are weekly meetings but I have never seen more then once or twice what the meetings are about is just about just club business (boring) or is there other things that go on. Perhaps run workshops for people, such as how to maintain a planted tank, or lighting, or have the club buy a par meter that members can borrow, stuff like this, something positive to make people want to join, closing the classifieds just makes people go pffft I guess I will post this somewhere else. As I said before there is nothing I personally have seen that the club offers besides, this forum the bbq and the auction. In the past there was always something going on it seems such as guest speakers and stuff like that, lately all am I getting is we need members join, but what are we joining again since the forum is not the club what is the club? A library of books that can be loaned out, well I got news for that if you are on this forum there are all the books and info you need out there without having to leave your house, so again maybe I missed it somewhere, but I just personally don't see what the club has to offer besides this forum, especially lately, it seems like its the execs against everyone else, the wardens and the inmates. you want members PROMOTE the club, look at the ovas announcements for the past little bit there is nothing here to promote the club besides asking for people to become execs nothing about what the club is offers or does. Since traffic to this forum seems to be the starting point perhaps there should be more or a welcome, and here is what we do.

[Hookup]

One more question in this open forum;  Can someone from the executive comment on the link below?

Members can click here:
http://ovas.ca/forum/index.php?topic=48754.0

For Non-Members:  That link is to a poll that was done in Feb 2011 of 73 members where 70% voted the classified should stay open.  There have been no poles or questions asked since that date of the membership in general on this topic that I could find.

[Severum]

2 points

1) I see the only real people that seem to benefit from this new decision will be the sponsors. With less forum users posting ads, the fish community will need to go to the sponsors exclusively to get their goods. That is great for them!

Who gains the most from the forum? Who makes the most profit from the forum? Is it the average user like me, who will post an ad once or twice a year for frags and get 10 sales or the sponsors who are making thousands and thousands of dollars off their posts.

(and here is where I get barred from all LFSs)

Maybe the exec should re-evaluate the sponsor membership fees or at least keep it on an even keel with what members would have to pay to post. If I make $200 selling frags in a year, a $20 membership is 10% of my earning. What percentage are sponsors paying? 10%, 1%, 0.01%?

2) We constantly hear the rhetoric that the club is not the forum. That was probably the case in early 2000 but this is 2012. We've moved leaps and bounds from that time and people like to sit on their couch at home or while taking "breaks"at work and do fish stuff. Not attend meetings.

It seems like its the powerful minority that is hanging onto their dream of the OVAS club all the while stifling the growth of the website. How many people attend meetings? 20, 30, 40? How many people visit only the website? I'd bet its closer to 500. Why should those 500 suffer because a few people are clinging to this idea of a club with in-person meetings.

If we are in such financial problems maybe we should address the least used aspect of OVAS. The Club side. Maybe we should reduce meetings to once every 2 months. Maybe we should look for a more affordable, less central meeting location. Maybe we don't need to have guest speakers come in from out of town and fit their bill (guessing here), etc. I'm sure if this thread was about a reduction in club meetings you'd get far less, if any, backlash.

The dinosaurs are gone. VHS is obsolete. Video stores are out of business. Personal letter mail is almost non-existant. This is natural (technological) selection. Let it happen. Listen to the masses.

Just my thoughts.

[Darth]

We constantly hear the rhetoric that the club is not the forum. That was probably the case in early 2000 but this is 2012. We've moved leaps and bounds from that time and people like to sit on their couch at home or while taking "breaks"at work and do fish stuff. Not attend meetings.

It seems like its the powerful minority that is hanging onto their dream of the OVAS club all the while stifling the growth of the website. How many people attend meetings? 20, 30, 40? How many people visit only the website? I'd bet its closer to 500. Why should those 500 suffer because a few people are clinging to this idea of a club with in-person meetings.

If we are in such financial problems maybe we should address the least used aspect of OVAS. The Club side. Maybe we should reduce meetings to once every 2 months. Maybe we should look for a more affordable, less central meeting location. Maybe we don't need to have guest speakers come in from out of town and fit their bill (guessing here), etc. I'm sure if this thread was about a reduction in club meetings you'd get far less, if any, backlash.

The dinosaurs are gone. VHS is obsolete. Video stores are out of business. Personal letter mail is almost non-existant. This is natural (technological) selection. Let it happen. Listen to the masses.

Just my thoughts.

well said

[dpatte]

When the classifieds were re-opened last year was there any attempt by the club to reach out and inform those that left because of the initial decision to close it? I for one didnt know that it had been reopened, and when I discovered it was reopened (just in the last two weeks), I decided I should get a membership - but then no one could offer me a 2012-13 membershio card.

There is now a competing club in the OV area with over 100 members many of which left when the initial decision to close was decided on. They have open classifieds, and they are growing.

I have said that I will not try to convince anyone here anymore what the purpose of the website and the classified where - I have said it ad naseum - and completely believe in their value for growing income for OVAS and OVAS membership, but I would like to understand how the decision was made, and what other attempts where made to solve the underlying issues which precipitated this decision.

I would also like to know which members of the executive voted to close the classifieds again, and whether there were any members of the executive that voted to keep it open.

[Hookup]

When the classifieds were re-opened last year was there any attempt by the club to reach out and inform those that left because of the initial decision to close it? I for one didnt know that it had been reopened, and when I discovered it was reopened (just in the last two weeks), I decided I should get a membership - but then no one could offer me a 2012-13 membershio card.

There is now a competing club in the OV area with over 100 members many of which left when the initial decision to close was decided on. They have open classifieds, and they are growing.

I have said that I will not try to convince anyone here anymore what the purpose of the website and the classified where - I have said it ad naseum - and completely believe in their value for growing income for OVAS and OVAS membership, but I would like to understand how the decision was made, and what other attempts where made to solve the underlying issues which precipitated this decision.

I would also like to know which members of the executive voted to close the classifieds again, and whether there were any members of the executive that voted to keep it open.

[/b]

Was this the new executive or the old?

[washefuzzy]

For the last four years I've been doing a head count of members showing up for the general meetings. We have had the same amount of people showing up for meetings. The meetings have drawn in 35 to 40 people so I don't know why there is a feeling that we have less people showing up for meetings.

[bettabreeder]

Who is that competing club ?

I would like to know as well.


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[jon1985]

I would like to know as well.


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me too please!

[bt]

I don't know why there is a feeling that we have less people showing up for meetings.

Less than use the website.

[rgauvin]

Other than Aylmer Salties.......Facebook is banned at work it's blocked and monitored......security reasons.

Hopefully another real site / Forum.

Same, I feel your pain

Anyways, as a "non-member" of ovas that uses the forum, I am clearly the type of person these new decisions are targeting. I've never sold anything on the classifieds, but I have bought from them (in all honesty/fairness, I can't remember if it was from OVAS club members or not). That said, in the future, the 1 or 2 times when I might want to sell something aquarium related, someone on ovas might be interested in buying it, but going forward the odds of them seeing my add has decreased, which sucks for me AND for them.

I understand that there is a desire to limit people coming in here and using the forum as a business to make money selling things when an ovas member might be a competing seller but there will be instances where ovas members might be interested in buying things that will now no longer be posted.

Why not look for a middle ground/compromise. Let non members post up 3-4 adds a year, and if they want to make more ads, they can buy them.

It lets non-members sell to members
It generates money off non-members who maybe should be members to help support the club and website
If things are priced right, it could help turn non-members paying for ads INTO members

crazy/stupid idea?

[elk]

If you want to raise membership,lower the cost to 5.00 and lock the whole site to members only.

[Jkelley]

 ;DI'm not a member and I truly appreciate this open forum/classified section.  It's helpful for me to extract information from some of you seasoned veterans of the hobby, and to purchase goods from some of you (member or not). 

As a non member, I don't reap the rewards of being one. ie; discounts at stores, and likely other connections/benefits.

I don't see the perks of modifying the site into a bourgeois boys club.