ATTENTION: CHANGES TO OVAS WEBSITE AND CLASSIFIEDS

[charlie]

And just so everyone knows, this thread is still around because people can voice their opinions. Everyone is entitled to that. BUT, when people start bashing the executive, etc. they are banned. So if you see people banned there is a reason, and chances are the posts have been deleted. No one is being banned for being unhappy but reasonable.

+1
and creating a second account will not help your cause.

13. Single Accounts.

Each member is allowed one online account. Registering with multiple accounts is not allowed unless a second account is approved by the moderating team due to exceptional circumstances. Members risk having all accounts closed permanently if they create multiple accounts without prior approval.

1. Flaming.

We adhere to a zero-tolerance policy against ANY personal attacks. Insulting another individuals opinion, name calling, accusations and disrespect towards anyone will result in the suspension or revocation of your account and/or membership. Flaming a moderator/web-master will result in an automatic ban from the forum.

This applies in ALL forums and PMs.

[Hookup]

CHARLIE / ROB18;

Current and Past Presidents.  You are posting in this thread, but missing my questions.  I'm starting to think its personal.  My questions are not malicous, or hurtful.  i'll do my best to answer them based upon what you've posted so far.  We can assume that my derived answers are correct.

TAKEN FROM PAGE 2
1) Was there a call for moderation help since the original call 12+ months ago?

No, we never mentioned the problem, nor did we ask for help.  We feel it should have been obvious to everyone as it was something that was a common reoccurring discussion at executive meetings and with all the threads in the classifieds being moderated.  Several people did step-up and offer, but due to personality conflicts we decided against adding them to the moderation team.  The moderation team is overloaded, however we did not ask for help.  This may have been an oversight, but we're good with our decision.

2) What is the benefit to current members of locking down the classifieds this way?

There is no benefit to current members.  This is a sales-tool to attract more members and dieter the fly-by-night members just looking for a target-specific classified ad's section.  As a benefit we might get more memberships.  Its a trade off as we know less items will appear on our classifieds, but current members can and will just go elsewhere to find those goods anyhow.

3) What was the membership total prior to the change, what was it after the "dip"?  How big is the problem?

We had about 70 paying members prior to this dip.  We are down to about 60 members now.  We spent a tone of money last season on big-names and big events with very poor turn out and financially are suffering greatly from that investment.  An investment that was designed to return the membership to the 100+ not drive it lower.  We need to get back to our roots, and keep the main club (events and bbq's etc) core as that is what is keeping the current 60 or so members paying.


-see it's not hard to answer questions. just got to try.

[robt18]

I quick answered, last post on page 4. Got pulled away at work while typing so they were pretty brief.

[Hookup]

I quick answered, last post on page 4. Got pulled away at work while typing so they were pretty brief.

K cool.. i did miss that post... my bad.  and thanks.

I'd like to know the specifics around membership numbers though.... what was the drop?  where were we and where are we?


I want to again point out that I am not questioning the decision, and I still don't have a strong preference either way... what I am looking for (via questions) is how the decision was made.  I'm not critiquing the club, the executive team, or the decision itself.  But I do feel that as a paying member I have a right to know how this decision was made and to be transparent, the answers there within affect my willingness to be come a member for the 4th or 5th year in a row (whatever it is now)

[charlie]

I don`t have the data but if memory serves me well, when the first eruption occured the membership that year rose to approx. 160 - subject to correcrtion, the year it was reopened it fell to less than a 100 again i was not on the exec. so these are not factual but i`m hinging it`s close.

[az]

this is still going on?

execs took a decesion, it could be a very wrong decesion but thats how it is, they were elected by the members to manage ovas, if we dont like it we should vote next year for someone who we think can do it better. until then we can protest but not start a war.

there shouldnt be a thread on this in the first place. it should be in the forum rules and thats that. 

those who think its not run well should try it running next time rather than telling execs to quit, i gurantee you will leave in 6-9 months saying "something come up" "my schedule changed" "new job dont allow time" etc etc
this is my thought as a member.



as a sponsor I think 5 free ads for non member is fair, those who set up frag tanks to sell people stuff on a regular basis, a simple $20 membership is JUST NOT ENOUGH.
 
IMHO

[dpatte]

The timing here is very important.

Since memberships are refreshed in September, there is a lag between decisions and membership numbers for more than a year. If I get a membership in September 2010, then quit in October 2010, you won't see that reflected in your membership count until September 2011-2012 (1-2 years later). As far as I know when the classified where reopened, there was not a concerted effort to bring back those that left when they were closed, and many still don't even know they were reopend, since they have never returned. Your current low numbers in of 2011-12 clearly show the consequences of the decisions of 2010.

I don`t have the data but if memory serves me well, when the first eruption occured the membership that year rose to approx. 160 - subject to correcrtion, the year it was reopened it fell to less than a 100 again i was not on the exec. so these are not factual but i`m hinging it`s close.

[dpatte]

Sorry, dissent is the basis of all democracy.

execs took a decesion, it could be a very wrong decesion but thats how it is, they were elected by the members to manage ovas, if we dont like it we should vote next year for someone who we think can do it better. until then we can protest but not start a war.

[robt18]

I believe the drop in membership was from around 150 to about 50.

[bergenm]

I believe the drop in membership was from around 150 to about 50.

Wow - I see where the concern is coming from...

[Hookup]

I don`t have the data but if memory serves me well, when the first eruption occured the membership that year rose to approx. 160 - subject to correcrtion, the year it was reopened it fell to less than a 100 again i was not on the exec. so these are not factual but i`m hinging it`s close.

Thanks Charlie & Rob18.

HOLY CRAP... 150 down to 50 members... that's crazy!


There is an issue we should be rallying towards... at 50 members we are in serious risk of losing everything...

[dpatte]

So as I said two messages below, the consequences of actions taken in 2010 cut the club in half.

I believe the drop in membership was from around 150 to about 50.

[Fishnut]

Ok...this is going off track just slightly but there have been several reasons why (I think) membership has declined.  I have heard that the club has been mismanaged and taken advantage of by a few exec members in the past, that execs have been fighting, that members and non members have been fighting, that FW and SW groups have been fighting, that members (including myself...shamefully) have had nasty disagreements with people on the forum and to top it all off, the classified section is getting used and abused.  

This has ALL led to a decline in memberships, not just the last removal of the classified section.  Slowly but surely things are getting put right.  More people are joining the exec who are not afraid to take a big risk and do something bold for short term pain and long term gain...like this classified decision.  Forum rules have been in place long enough that EVERYONE should be able to conduct themselves accordingly so the tolerance for deviation is getting extremely low.  That's not a threat BTW...just a comment on how things are getting better.  It takes an organization a long time to recover from so much awfulness...especially when it returns every time a bold decision is made.

[bitterman]

Thanks Charlie & Rob18.

HOLY CRAP... 150 down to 50 members... that's crazy!


There is an issue we should be rallying towards... at 50 members we are in serious risk of losing everything...

I think some people did join because o the classified section but my hope is that they see the value of being a club member. I have been a member for a very long time and will continue for years to come.....

Here are some of my thoughts about being a member and the good that comes from it!

-Put back to the community and the whole nonprofit vision of OVAS
-Meetings and social interaction
-Free snacks and pizza at meetings (There is a  charge for non club members for pizza nights)
-The Ovas Library access
-Amazing guest speakers (Some very well known!)
-Workshops and DIY Expertise
-Gallery
-%10 off from supporting vendors (If you are buying a lot of stuff at the sponsors this can easily pay for your membership)
-Ability to post stuff for sale in Ovas Club Member only. Currently it is the Non-ish related classified section and as of Sept 1sy will be everything.
-The Ovas BBQ for end of season is free for Ovas Club Members and there family. This alone can pay for your membership if its a family of 4!
-Garage Sales table rentals (First table free for Club Members)
-Ovas Auction % back to ovas is less for members
-Etc... I'm sure we can think of a lot more things lets increase the list and focus on the positive rather than complain about something you can't change.

Moderation of the Classified section is not fun, very time consuming but required especially with some of the garbage and verbal abuse that comes from certain people. I know Ovas tried to be fair and not bring out the ban stick too often. Everyone can make a honest mistake but repeat offenders are frequent...

Bruce

[dpatte]

The suggestion has been made in another thread that a compromise is possible as follows.

non-members cannot post for sale classifieds, unless they pay $2/ad. Collect the money online using paypal at the time of creating the ad.

this resolves most of the issues raised which brought about the change, and might make everyone happy.

[bitterman]

The suggestion has been made in another thread that a compromise is possible as follows.

non-members cannot post for sale classifieds, unless they pay $2/ad. Collect the money online using paypal at the time of creating the ad.

this resolves most of the issues raised which brought about the change, and might make everyone happy.

In theory this sound like a sound idea however in the real world there are a bunch of complexities. For one who is going to code the required software and keep it up to date as the forum software is upgraded each time. Ovas.ca is made up of many components.... a seaming simple idea adds complexity the webmaster might not want to deal with as it is a volunteer position and not a full time job. Implementation,  testing and refining something like this would take much time and manpower. It also ads complexities for the moderators. If someone breaks the rules and posts a new ad with the same items within 30 days (Bumping) should they get a refunded how would this be handled etc etc.

Ovas has never been about making $$$ from the classified section.. it was a benefit for people sell fry and used equipment. In fact it might be having  negative effect on the hobby.... People want everything for free or next to nothing as a result of some of the good deals and the local suppliers suffer as a result.

I'm thank-full the Exec decided to just limit the classified section to Ovas Club Members the alternative could have been to get rid of it completely.

Regards,
   Bruce

[veron]

If you start charging people for posting classifieds, your gaurenteed to loose them. They/me
will just post somewere else like USED OTTAWA ETC..

Selling used equipment is just fine and in fact helps beginners with little money and
others to upgrade. Been like this forever. It also helps keep stores/dealers a little inline
with there pricing as they to can get very gready!! People selling used equipment here
are hobbiests and have paid there dues so to speak. Just leave things alone. Always seems
people want change just for change sake??

[Jeff1192]

Sorry, dissent is the basis of all democracy.

I have to agree with Az on this one. Dissent is the basis of democracy but what always seems to be forgotten in these annual discussions is that our Exec are VOLUNTEERS. They don't get paid, they give their time to the club to improve things. They have to make decisions that are realisitic based on this situation (some of the proposed alternatives are not realistic). This is not a paying full-time job for them.

As Az said in his post if you don't like the decisions that are being made you can join the Exec. I believe there is a position open right now as a matter of fact.

Just my 2 cents.

Jeff

[Feivel]

I read the first 2 pages flew thrww 3 4 and 5 lol ..... I purchased the membership for a few reasons. One that ot pays for itself with the 10% discount from the stores. 2 i may not have time or know were the meeti.gs are now held bit there are a lot of salt people that do not attend. Find out why and rectify this problem. Ive been to a meeting or two and the last 2 bbqs, wich in turn made the membership worth it, and yes i do agree itis much more freshwater driven. 3 i had lots of questions and there were a lot of good people with good answers. And to me this was well worth the purchase of the membership. Wheni started out the classifieds were locked but i didnt have anything to sell but appreciated the good deals i coupd find on the used equipment.  Being a single hardworking father and trying to start a 75 gallon full out reef tank, is NOT easy or cheap!. Yes ive spent a lot of money on this hobby not all of it at our, sponsors yet i try and visit each one equally. As i talk with the owners i can tell some feel offended that i dont shop strictly with them. Others are thanful fur my businesss and the others guys are just happy that i stopped by weatheri buy something or not.

If by buying the membership can help drive the forum based information may ee that could be a solution. You could give a new member a month or 3 to test out the waters with ovas. Then after expiry they have to pay xxx$ to be a forum only and xxx$ to attend the meetings bbq auction etc.... To me this would be the best option and not closing the for sale section to nonmembers. If there time is expired then the site in general will be closed to them for posting materialz.

[wandmangels]

The suggestion has been made in another thread that a compromise is possible as follows.

non-members cannot post for sale classifieds, unless they pay $2/ad. Collect the money online using paypal at the time of creating the ad.

this resolves most of the issues raised which brought about the change, and might make everyone happy.

10 ads/year=$20 membership which inturn = discounts at most sponsors and all our meetings/events/bbq