Is there such a thing as too much filtration...

[clouxles]

or are the fish just too big for the tank?

Scenario
55 gallon - 6 average sized Discus 3 small clown loaches(2 inches) & 4 neons. Tank has gravel 3 pieces of wood and live plants. 110 watts CF lighting no CO2 injection at this time.

Filtration
Emporer 400 - Penguin 330 - Sponge Filter (cycled for Spawn tank if I ever get motivated.)

Maintenance 2 x weekly or every 3 days 60% water change with a vacuum of bottom. Filters pads rinsed weekly (alternately) changed as required about every 2 -3 months. I rinse the sponge filter every 2 weeks.

Water readings
Nitrites Nitrates  always 0
Ammonia rises over the 3 days between changes from 0 to .50 to (maybe a touch more).

I always thought that a properly cycled tank would adjust itself to get rid of whatever ammonia was produced and the Nitrates were the issues with improperly maintained tanks?

Am I disturbing the cycle by vacuuming too much?

The fish... well they seem great eat lots and one pair spawn regularly... so maybe I'm just paranoid.

All my other tanks (I have MTS and am taking nothing for it) read 0 ammonia but of course the fish are not near the size.

Questions - Comments  Thanks

[Aiglos]

clouxles:  

I would check your test kit or the way you are testing; The lack of nitrite and nitrate kinda make me think you are doing your tests wrong as you are obviously an experianced fish keeper.

You have MORE then enough filtration on your tank; the emp 400 alone is filtering the tank 8x over.  

I would definatly say your tank is "Stocked" to the point where I'd be uncomfortable adding any more fish but wouldnt be worried about removing them as you do perform alot of water changes.  

I was originally thinking that you were overdoing the rinsing of the filter media but then remembered that you have 4 bio-wheels still spinning and they are more then enough for biological filtration so ammonia would not be your problem.

PLUS you have live plants !!!!! and SPAWNING?  I Dont know any fish that would even think about spawning in ammonia soaked water.

I hope you get some more valuble input and hope this gets fixed;

[aidensmomma2000]

I recognize that fish  :wink:

[clouxles]

I even went out and purchased another test kit to confirm the results.

The overstocking is very temporary as Santa (Mrs Claus) has promised bigger and better things under the tree.  :wink:

[Aiglos]

And you got the same results ?

Weird.  . .

Where is Big daddy or one of our execs when you need them eh ?

[BigDaddy]

How long has the tank been up and running?

Are the wheels are your two filters spinning... even irregularly?  It is very odd to see the biological cycle impacted on these filters, since the biowheels never get cleaned...

How often are you changing the filter pads in those units?  Don't forget, there is carbon in them, and if you don't change them, the carbon will stop adsorbing stuff and return it back into the system again.

You definately have more than enough filtration.  Thankfully, the filters don't produce a lot of current, which is great for discus.  The only down sides to the emperor and penguin line is the fact that both are only moderate mechanical filters.  When you do a gravel vac, are you pulling up lots of stuff?

Did the wheels from these filters come from a pre-established tank?  If you have been maintaining that water change schedule since the beginning with new media, then I would say your tank hasn't completed a cycle.  Your changing so much water so often, there isn't enough ammonia/nitrite for the bacteria to build up a colony with.

Hope this is a good start.

[Aiglos]

The thing that confuses me is the Bio-wheels;  everything I know about Bio-wheels indicates that it doesnt matter what he does in his tank because even the SLIGHTEST amount of amonia will start to be "eaten" by Nitrite Creating bacteria and inturn by the Nitrate creating bacteria ( sorry for the terms ) so we would be seeing RESULTS of Nitrite and Nitrate even if they are very little;  as even with the large water changes it would be impossible to get rid of all the nitrAtes.  

He could change 100% of the water 2x daily and he would still cycle his tank while using Bio-wheels.  Specially if his tank is already established.

[mseguin]

Maybe I missed it, but just double checking: do u use dechlorinator when water-changing?

[BigDaddy]

The thing that confuses me is the Bio-wheels;  everything I know about Bio-wheels indicates that it doesnt matter what he does in his tank because even the SLIGHTEST amount of amonia will start to be "eaten" by Nitrite Creating bacteria and inturn by the Nitrate creating bacteria ( sorry for the terms ) so we would be seeing RESULTS of Nitrite and Nitrate even if they are very little;  as even with the large water changes it would be impossible to get rid of all the nitrAtes.  

He could change 100% of the water 2x daily and he would still cycle his tank while using Bio-wheels.  Specially if his tank is already established.

If ammonia is only rising to .5ppm over three days, then the conditions are present to cause an EXTREMELY long cycle.

Think about it... we cycle our tanks using around 3ppm of ammonia... and even then it takes almost 6 weeks for a fishless cycle.

[Julie]

Are you cleaning your sponges in tank water?
Do you have bio balls in the back of the penguin?
Maybe try rinsing the sponges with a little less zealous.  Your penguin pads should be replaced more often- maybe the carbon is discharging into the tank.  Do you see the cloudiness?
Your heavy water changing is likely keeping things in check with the fish.
Your tank is not overstocked.  Breeders tanks are much more heavily stocked than this.

Post pics of that tank, sounds very nice.

Thanks,
Julie

[Aiglos]

If ammonia is only rising to .5ppm over three days, then the conditions are present to cause an EXTREMELY long cycle.

Think about it... we cycle our tanks using around 3ppm of ammonia... and even then it takes almost 6 weeks for a fishless cycle.

The 3ppm of ammonia you put into your tank for a fishless cycle  is not 3 ppm for long and that is one shot of ammonia; with the fish in that tank there will be alot more "TOTAL" ammonia coming out of his fish then the 3ppm you put into your tank on a fishless cycle; You are only seeing the .5ppm because it is being converted to nitrIte...  

I am curious as to where the NitrItes & NitrAtes are;  This is an established tank and not new tank syndrome; even new tank syndome has SOME signs of nitrIte;  I'd like to hear more about the tank though so hopefully we can help.  

Im curious;  looking for more details.  . .  see how this pans out

[Julie]

Aiglos - he's listing nitrite and trate as zero.

Julie

[Aiglos]

Julie;  I understand that he is listing them at 0; I just don't understand how an established tank can have 0 of Nitrite and trate.

[Julie]

He's got it planted and doing alot of water changes.
Alot of discus keepers run there bb's at about 5.

Julie

[BigDaddy]

The 3ppm of ammonia you put into your tank for a fishless cycle  is not 3 ppm for long and that is one shot of ammonia

Well... I guess your fishless cycle takes longer than mine does, as most people MAINTAIN 3ppm of ammonia.  When you add 3ppm of ammonia, and then next day there is none... then the cycle done and regardless of the number of fish you add, they won't overload the biological filter.

[clouxles]

Wheels spin on all Bio Wheels (that's why I am baffled) the Emperor has it's own jets.
Tank has been up for at least 6 months with Discus in tank
The Nitrites and Nitrates are 0 (blue-yellow) as of right now.
Todays ammonia showed 0 (water change last night(5:00 PM)
No other type of collector (for bacteria) in either filter.
In the Emperor I run no charcoal just floss in the basket.
When vacuuming it's very obvious I do it regularly as there is very little (light brown cloud) nothing like my other tanks.
FYI
This is a new symptom as I do check the Discus Tank typically bi-weekly... and use water conditioner at each water change. I'll  keep this up to date for a while just to stimulate discusion.

Thanks for all the feedback!

Mark