My many discus questions...

[Mettle]

Okay. So about three weeks ago I got my first three discus and now it's time to supplement research with some questions.

When I first got the discus they were three sizes ranging from 2" to about 3". So I have what I call the big, the medium and the small.

At first everything was fine. Then Big started chasing and picking on Medium, but left Small alone. Then Small interjected in the fighting and Big started picking on him. Then Medium started picking on Small as well. So now I've taken Small out because all he was doing was hiding and not eating and he's in a 10 gallon by himself now hiding in a corner behind some plants. It's quite sad. I feel bad for him. And want to help him along... What can I do to get him back on the right track? I don't want to lose my fish!

My next issue is that I'm thinking of using my 90 gallon tank that I was originally going to use for my bearded dragon for the fish. (It was bought as a fish tank, used, from someone who had fish in it.) I would like to possibly do a sand or mixed gravel/sand substrate. But is this okay for discus? I can't do the bare bottom thing. I personally hate the look and could never get used to it.

If I go the route of the 90 gallon with dimensions of 48x18x24, how many discus could I keep in there? And how many other fish would I be looking at as well? And I know this seems really odd - but does anyone think I could reasonably mix female bettas and discus? (Biotope smiotope!)

What type of lighting would be best to consider on a tank like this for medium to low growth plants? I'm thinking along the lines of what I already have. Swords, anubias, java fern, java moss, crypts...

And what does a complete diet for discus look like? And why does everyone always insist on beefheart for them? I doubt a discus would get beefheart in the wild - so there's got to be another reason. Is it the high protein? And wouldn't constantly feeding them beefheart be bad for them? I know too much beefheart for piranhas is a big NO NO. Why is it different for discus?

Anyway... Lots of different questions. Most important one is the first one about the little guy. (Who is also my favourite!)

Thanks for any help.

[Julie]

1.  If small is not eating and possibly was pooping some mucousy white poops, he may have hexamita - very common in discus.
First off, what is the temp of your tanks?  Small needs heat and clean water to start with - up to minimum 92 gradually if this is smalls diagnosis.  For your tank to work best, I recommend at least 5, 6 is better.  55 is best, 33 would do for a little bit.

2. 1 discus/10 gallon - so 90 would fit 9, but of course you could put a few more in there with more water changes.  As far as substrate goes, not sure on the sand, but I would assume yes- go to simplydiscus.

3. Don't know about lighting, I have a s/w lamp on my 55 and still can't grow plants, could be the perfecto hoods.

4. Beefheart makes them grow really fast; no it's not a requirement.
A complete diet should include a nice pellet(sera or the new one which I haven't tried yet), maybe some colorbits and yes flake, they eat flake - I use omega one.  Since they're small you could try soaking the pellets in water first.

Julie

[Julie]

Would like to add, it may be a good idea to get some metro - metro is in the jungle tabs - a very low dose though/ or seachem.

Julie

[BigDaddy]

Okay. So about three weeks ago I got my first three discus and now it's time to supplement research with some questions.

When I first got the discus they were three sizes ranging from 2" to about 3". So I have what I call the big, the medium and the small.

At first everything was fine. Then Big started chasing and picking on Medium, but left Small alone. Then Small interjected in the fighting and Big started picking on him. Then Medium started picking on Small as well. So now I've taken Small out because all he was doing was hiding and not eating and he's in a 10 gallon by himself now hiding in a corner behind some plants. It's quite sad. I feel bad for him. And want to help him along... What can I do to get him back on the right track? I don't want to lose my fish!

Discus are a schooling fish.  Especially as juvenilles, they need the security of the school to keep down on stress.  Your little guy is probably under more stress being in a solitary 10 gallon than he was in the 38.  You'd have been better off isolating Big, since he's obviously growing out well....

My next issue is that I'm thinking of using my 90 gallon tank that I was originally going to use for my bearded dragon for the fish. (It was bought as a fish tank, used, from someone who had fish in it.) I would like to possibly do a sand or mixed gravel/sand substrate. But is this okay for discus? I can't do the bare bottom thing. I personally hate the look and could never get used to it.

The reason people use bare bottom tanks is for grow out purposes.  To get the largest discus possible, there's lots and lots of feedings.  That's lots and lots of leftover food, and lots and lots of waste.  Cleaning that up in a bare bottom is a lot easier than a gravel substrate.

Now... if you use a fine sand that your python won't pick up, it wouldn't hurt having a fine layer of sand.

If I go the route of the 90 gallon with dimensions of 48x18x24, how many discus could I keep in there? And how many other fish would I be looking at as well? And I know this seems really odd - but does anyone think I could reasonably mix female bettas and discus? (Biotope smiotope!)

Factor on 10 gallons of water for every adult discus.  As a first time discus owner... it would be a good idea to keep them in a species only tank until you are really comfortable with them... then consider converting to community.

What type of lighting would be best to consider on a tank like this for medium to low growth plants? I'm thinking along the lines of what I already have. Swords, anubias, java fern, java moss, crypts...

Bomag is running a 90 gallon with two 3 foot NO tubes and two 2 foot aquaglo bulbs.  His crypts are thriving, and his anubias and fern do just fine.

I'm sure if you put four 4 foot bulbs of whatever spectrum you like over the tank, you'd be fine

And what does a complete diet for discus look like? And why does everyone always insist on beefheart for them? I doubt a discus would get beefheart in the wild - so there's got to be another reason. Is it the high protein? And wouldn't constantly feeding them beefheart be bad for them? I know too much beefheart for piranhas is a big NO NO. Why is it different for discus?

Anyway... Lots of different questions. Most important one is the first one about the little guy. (Who is also my favourite!)

Thanks for any help.

Beefheart is a staple for grow outs.  Juvie discus need tons of protein.  If you look at tetra color bits (which was originally designed strictly as a discus pellet), it is very high in protein.

And part of the reason we do large waterchanges is BECAUSE of the beefheart.  It really fouls the water... so usually discus owners feed beefheart about an hour or two before their scheduled water changes.

HTH

[BigDaddy]

... go to simplydiscus...

I wouldn't recommend that.  Frankly, SimplyDiscus is part of the reason some people think Discus are such high maintenance fish.

While there are several very knowledgable people on that board, there are many more who aren't... who just repeat what they've been told and have absolutely no experience to the contrary.

Simply Discus is fine for getting some additional info... but frankly for someone new to discus... in my opinion, that site does more of a DIS service to the discus community by listing hard and fast rules for what does and does not make for successful discus husbandry.

[Julie]

Simply Discus is an encylopedia with up to date info on discus.
Look at the discus, bd - that is proof what they advocate works.
Old school teachings are what all the original discus breeders succeeded with, heavy water changes for grow outs.
Isn't that what you are doing with your discus in your avatar?
Following what sd advocates, guarantees success as a beginner discus keeper.
With progress, you make your own choices.

Julie

[BigDaddy]

Large water changes and bare bottom tanks aren't concepts unique to the Simply Discus forums... that's all I'm doing with my grow out tanks.

My point is not to say that SimplyDiscus is useless.  I'm saying that it promotes a level of husbandry that will and likely does scare people away from keeping discus.

I'm relatively new to discus myself.  Now, when I start something new, I research the HELL out of it.  I mean stupid amounts of reading.

The problem is, not everyone does that (don't worry Mettle, I don't mean you   :lol: ... but lots of people will read this thread).  There is a very large part of the community that doesn't do their own reasearch, that let others decide for them what works and what doesn't.

That's where I take issue with SD.  Yes, if you do everything they say to start growing out discus, you will likely be successful.  But at what cost?  Some of the advice on that forum, which no one DARES contradict for fear of becoming a pariah, has little or no benefit or is completely wrong.

SD regularly tells people ( and its always the same people saying it) to get rid of their canister filters.  That they are death traps for discus if the power goes out.  That a canister filter left off for one hour will go anaerobic, the beneficial bacteria will completely die off, and that when the canister powers back up again, it will release toxins into the aquarium.  This is a completely false statement.  I know it because I have real world experience to back it up.

How many people went and sold their canister filters and probably took a big hit financial because of this myth that SD encouraged?

Look at the thread about pre-filter sponges... another example of people who don't agree with pre-filters as a necessary part of filtration being completely shot down and so frustrated that they simply stopped posting on the forum.

There are several people on the SD forum who deal only in absolutes.  I tend to avoid people like that.

Of course, this is all simply my opinion ...

[aidensmomma2000]

My advice is to keep them in the 90g and get lots of plants and at least 4 more fish the same size.  :wink:

[Julie]

If you look deeper into the forum, there are alot of people contradicting it.  I did it in reverse, started with ac, read simply discus and then added a canister and removed all my prefilters except one.
They don't advocate canisters because of the out of sight out of mind line of thought -(canisters not cleaned for months at a time).

Julie

[Mettle]

Well. Let's see now.

I re-introduced Small to the 38 gal as he wasn't doing anything except hiding in the corner of the 10 gallon. So he's back in the big tank. (And my new black copper delta betta is settling in quite nicely. )

I just noticed that Medium seems to be the same size as Big now! :shock: It's really quite odd because I could have sworn that a week ago this was not the case... Anyway. They don't seem to be pestering Small too much. Kind of 'sniffed him out' when I put him in the tank. Nothing big though. Small also seems to have grown a set and instead of cowering at every turn he displays a little. He is also foraging and eating. And he's doing so with Medium and Big.

And then the betta is chasing all three. :? I think I'm going to take that little bugger out as soon as I find another spot for him. He's just not friendly at all.

As for future plans... I do intend to get more discus. Probably the size of small, which I think would be better for the bunch. And help with the aggression issues. In terms of not putting the discus in a community tank setting - too late.

As for water changing/gravel vac'ing schedules. I just re-arranged my tank decorations to make things more conducive to gravel vac'ing by removing half of the drift wood I had in there. I miss the old look. But it wasn't practical. So function over form on that one... I've also been doing 30-40% water changes and gravel vacs every two days. I know it's not the 500,000% that Big Daddy does every day :lol: but it's what I can manage.

Instead of feeding beefheart I've been feeding squid. It is also higher in protein. My discus seem to like it. But then again, they seem to like just about every food I toss in the tank. :shock: They even pick at bottom feeder tablets and algae wafers meant for my clown loaches! I'll also look into the tetra bites that everyone's talking about.

Rather than using my 90 gallon tank, which I truly do need for my beardie, and which is a bit scuzzed up and scratched anyway, I'm going to wait and invest in the right tank at the right time. Which will be sooner than later.

And just glancing at my tank once again and seeing that pesky betta chasing my discus about I know there's a move in his future! Like - tomorrow! HA!

Thanks for the help Julie & Big Daddy. Much appreciated. And Robyn, you're just a bad influence!