No action in saltwater ?? And classifieds

[Darth]

Fish, I am sorry if my comment about posting something positive came off wrong, it was not at all geared towards you personally, its just a lot of people come on and say this is wrong, then the execs defend their position. I have been a member here for a long time, I remember how excited I was when I went from fry all the way up to spawning adult LOL. I want to see this forum succeed, so the hope in what I said was kind of a hail mary to say, no we don't all go to meetings, and no we don't all agree with things, but hey we like the forum, and want to keep it part of the club so maybe some positive posting may help, the execs would say hey some good ideas here I do apoligize if I came off sort of pompous. I agree so many with so  many things you said, and I myself had left the other place for the ovas bashing, and then rejoined, because of some people on here. I do believe we can all exist with no issues, and would love to see that.

I would Like to thank Stu for being the one exec who has been an inspiration here as a face of the execs, you have done a great job of at least acknowledging the posts here and giving feedback. It's nice to be able to post an opinion without being ripped apart for it. So I for one thank you. I think this thread is on a good track to be helpful, we all know nothing happens overnight, and change may be slow, but I for believe we all can see a change needs to come

Oh and I also had an idea for the forum (well I had seen it on another site) A review section, we can all posts personal reviews of products (not sponsors because that would be a whole can of personal worms) from food to equipment, it would give someone who was thinking of trying something an idea to get first hand reviews, not something your cousins, neighnbors, hairdressers sisters boyfriends SOmeone real and here, like hey, I just got this new light and these are my pros and cons, members can offer people to come see first hand what its is or just something to that effect so it can just be a product review section just food for thought

[fish]

Those are some great points Fish, thanks for sharing them.

I wanted to touch on a couple of items. 

The first is that any post that is edited, or deleted, is accompanied by a PM to the user from the moderator that actioned it with an explanation of why it was moderated. There were issues, in the past, where things were just edited and deleted, but that doesn't happen anymore. Only clear cut violations of the forum rules result in edited/deleted posts.

The second is in regards to PM's, and the ability of the exec to read them.  The only person who can access PM's is the webmaster and the only time they would do that is in the case of a request from a police organization in relation to criminal activity.  I'm not sure where it started, but some people seem to be genuinely concerned that we can just go in and read PM's in our spare time, this is NOT the case at all.

Finally, we can't implement a "reply to this email so we know you're a real person" and you get instant access to the forum policy.  The person mentioned by you above has successfully created several new accounts, and many more unsuccessfully, in the last 2 months under a variety of IP addresses and if we used an auto system he'd be back on here every 3 hours.

I didn't actually believe any of the crazy rumours and in retrospect I probably should not have propagated them here - I just wanted to point out that I'm hearing them. Something just doesn't add up. Why a city full of otherwise so polite Canadians could feel so strongly as to lash out so violently against a website about keeping aquariums escapes me. I mean really, can you imagine a more harmless hobby and yet...

I don't think anyone who takes two seconds to think about it would believe people with day jobs and lives would waste their time reading a bunch in chatter on PMs.

I don't have the history so if this has been suggested before I'm sorry to mention it. One thought I have had is to look hard at the way Reef Central runs their classifieds. They make it work somehow... 50 post minimum before you can post, absolutely no commercial ads http://reefcentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=1105272 I don't want to be seen as one of the people who are militant about classifieds - just an observation. Sure - some people will post nonsense to get to the 50 ads but others will not and it will drive activity.

Again, thank you all for spending your valuable time without compensation trying to make this all work.

[fish]

Fish, I am sorry if my comment about posting something positive came off wrong, it was not at all geared towards you personally, its just a lot of people come on and say this is wrong, then the execs defend their position.

Peace.

And I like your review idea. I will go post something to that effect right now.

[Darth]

yes I like the min post idea as well, but they would have to be real posts, otherwise people will say hi 50 times LOL. but it can def stop the hit and runs for the classifieds

[ajm1961]

Instead of free classified, could we not ask for a token amount - for example, $5 minimum payment through PayPal will get you 3 ads. Paid club members would continue to have the privilege of posting classified with no limits. Perhaps we can extend that privilege for paid forum members? Like at $10 a year? And to make the "investment" worthwhile, look into other forum member benefits?
Just looking at all possibilities -  I recognize that some forum members will never reap all the rewards of their membership because they don't come out to face-to-face events.

[Darth]

Sad part is no one is going to be happy till the classifieds are back open to the general public, myself and a few others have suggested tiered memberships ie forum only but the result is gonna be the same people don't want to pay to post things, too bad we don't have something like what eBay does which is charge a small percentage of selling price. I am sure that opens a whole new set of craziness, then we would have to have someone monitor the classifieds and there would have be some sort if PayPal account t or something. Argh!! There is just no simple way about it, end result is as much as we try and make this about the club, it all comes back to the classifieds being free, so maybe it's time to open then up with the understanding they will not be moderated, take away the option to reply in the post people can post ad if someone has a question they can pm the poster, this would avoid somewhat the ability to bump posts which seems to me one of the biggest complaints. So is it possible to do this have the ability to post an add just no ability to relply to the post only contact is for pm it would be up to the poster to remove the ad if Said item is sold, or they can continue to receive Pm asking if its still available

[Hookup]

I thought it was 100% unanimous that the exec agreed the classified would be closed.

Has this changed?  - would an Exec weight in?

[ajm1961]

I thought it was 100% unanimous that the exec agreed the classified would be closed.
Has this changed?  - would an Exec weight in?

Things have not changed, we are simply exchanging views on the possibilities. If we could find a solution that both forum members and club members could live with, then things could change. This is entirely up to the future executive. Hopefully though, it shouldn't be a flip-flop in policy without some thought for a lasting solution.
That's my personal view - I am part of the current exec.

[ajm1961]

too bad we don't have something like what eBay does which is charge a small percentage of selling price.

If we were to charge $5 for x number of ads, doesn't that take care of a nominal fee for the service? I realize that it isn't proportional to the selling price, but it will average out I think. The fee for selling items at the mini-auctions and the Giant Auction varies between 10-40% - so the online classified ends up being a bargain at the suggested price.
Just my perspective.

[FocusFin]

For when the day arrives, there are really three issues to overcome in the classifieds (as I see it).

The first is the idea that individuals can simply sign up and and begin posting ads without any intention of participating in OVAS itself. This does not sit well with the current exec and a number of members.

The second involves individuals running a business under the guise of posting ads as a hobbyist. This also does not sit well with the exec and a number of members.

The third involves individuals abusing the system by multilisting, reposting, bumping and generally trying to circumvent the rules put in place. This is generally frowned upon by everyone.

The minimum post idea works on some sites because they have manpower to police it. But you only have to spend some time on those forums to realize how many people are posting simply to run up their count. Imagine having to review every post to determine if it constitutes a real post. It's a bad idea (for this site) and will only make matters worse as people start debating "why was my post not counted" etc...

Charging for ads will not work in any shape or form. Lets face it, if there's already intense objection from some individuals to having to pay $20 to support the club, there's no way they're going to want to pay to post ads.

I believe that the majority of ad posters are genuine, well intentioned hobbyists and I believe that the classifieds should be reserved for those members and non-members who are respectful and follow the rules. Those who don't are banned. OVAS is extremely tolerant of bad behaviour, to a fault sometimes.

The classifieds are a privilege and should be treated as such.

[Hookup]

Andre, you and I met for a few hours and it was a pretty good time.  I wish you well and always read you posts closely as after our brief encounter I have a lot of respect for you.

I do hope that you continue to work in the middle ground as you often seem to do as this site needs people like you with an open mind.

[Darth]

If we were to charge $5 for x number of ads, doesn't that take care of a nominal fee for the service? I realize that it isn't proportional to the selling price, but it will average out I think. The fee for selling items at the mini-auctions and the Giant Auction varies between 10-40% - so the online classified ends up being a bargain at the suggested price.
Just my perspective.

while I get why the auction cost so much to sell there (personally 40% is a ridiculous amount to take from a sale) I don't know there is no solution here, it seems the execs want it one way members want it another so its a stalemate =(

[veron]

Seriously closing the classifieds might be a good Idea, Everyone knows how to post on USED OTTAWA and KIJJII
Let them deal with the headaches. If a member pm's someone about gear then thats okay to. Ovas will not be responsible. We can get back to the hobby.

[Stussi613]

I thought it was 100% unanimous that the exec agreed the classified would be closed.

Has this changed?  - would an Exec weight in?

The previous exec voted to close the classifieds, the current exec is unanimous in not having a strong desire to re-open them.

All that being said, the points and suggestions being brought forward are being heard.

I don't know there is no solution here, it seems the execs want it one way members want it another so its a stalemate =(

Speaking for myself, as a member of the exec and from my personal opinion, lots of the people who want the classifieds re-opened are the same ones who have been posting about it since September.  It's a mixed group with most of the people pushing for it being non-members of the club. Before I joined the exec there were a couple of non-scientific polls done that indicated that the majority of respondents wanted them re-opened, both in the members forum and the regular forum. I bolded the term respondents because there was no way to judge who was responding in the regular forum and the majority who responded in the members area were out of a relatively small sampling of the membership.

The way I see it we don't really know what the card carrying membership wants, and I hate to be blunt but I'm not really interested in dealing with all the issues of moderation that will entail because 12 out of 16 of the people who answered the poll want them re-opened.  In my mind a majority vote to re-open the classifieds needs 2/3 of the members to vote yes, and that means 118 of the 177 members coming to a meeting with their cards and putting their hands up.

Now I'm not saying that we can't find another way to handle the situation (some great points have been brought up that we need to follow up on), just that its going to take more than the same old argument to change my mind.

Stuart

[Feivel]

  In my mind a majority vote to re-open the classifieds needs 2/3 of the members to vote yes, and that means 118 of the 177 members coming to a meeting with their cards and putting their hands up.

How can you claim such a thing when you barely have 20 active members? mind you im not one to watch the attendance numbers, but you should know as well as i do that that will NEVER EVER happen.

a good example is the canadian election .....

(I really dont mean to add oil to the pot)
On a second note, im pretty sure that poll we did do a few months back, had an option if you were a member, non member, exec, and for the most part it was paying members that voted to open the forum. out of those members, how many did not see that post? how many read it and found it of no interest and continued on? Im not sayng open the classifieds as you have stated some valid points on moderation, im just stating that the information you ask for has already been provided. And again as Darth has stated time and time over, you "Exec" Seem to glance your eyes right over this info nd come back to the few that have ruined it. How about keeping a 3 per person post and have them expire like kijiji, no editing allowed, MAX of 3 for whatever time period. so if you post an item, your slot is locked for 2 weeks. you post 3 thats it no more. If kijiji can do it, im sure the webmaster can figure something out similar to that format.

On a second note, to try and involve the club, you can always try andwork on a more personal socialisation. Find out what other peoples are doing with other hobbies and their work. Maybee others could see interest in other thing or exp. Say like myself. How many people here know that im a automobile mechanic, Im CWB 4G Certified and i pour concrete for a living??? not many, but if someone knew this, and was looking for some services, or help in these trades, i would love to give them a hand. Life isnt JUST about the fishy's   Try it out Call it the local Skills Page by knowing the member, and not just his tank, could help socialize ovas and get more people to the meetings cause they will enjoy to come down sit and chit chat, listen to the speakers, they will know that there are 4-5-10-15-50 people that he knows that will greet him with a smile, he will feel more comfortable knowing more people than just being a stand alone sailor. and i think this is the BIGGEST killer these days with all the social electronic media, people are becoming more and more "sketched-out" i guess about large crowds of unknown people, even if these people are the ones you talk with everyday, you still feel "out of place" on that note, maybee its just the overall lack of salties to attract the other salties to the meetings because we all know you guys try your best to make us happy. I now realise who ret talbot is, I did want to attend the meeting,But i missed the meeting for whatever reason, Mostly because i thought he was a well known photographer, but now, when i read his artices in Coral Magazine im like HEY.... SHOOT.... i missed that seminar, now today i kick myself, but back when i had 3 months experince.... well ..... cant say the same lol .... anyways

Just like our tanks, we can put band aids all day long but untill we find the actual root of the problem, the problem will keep comming back. and i dont believe it relies on the classifieds, as when i was a new member i would come to ovas to read, and read, and read and when i was done, i would read some more. i didnt care much about the classifieds, Yes they were a definate BONUS, but there were always great deals on kijiji.  other than loving all the tank shut downs at the time and all the friendly, knowledgfull members that would take the time to read my plea for help and suggest a few remedies were very humble to the hobby. In this light i have been a reefer for 3 years, and as you can see in the updates pictures, looking REALLY nice and i have no trouble sharing my experience with others .... the best part: FOR FREE WOW who does that these days anyways??? lol

Anyways guys, have a great time and enjoy your hobby, fresh or salt, and thanks for sticking around. Thanks for being there, for me, for us, for others and for the new guys

CHEERS to OVAS

[rgauvin]

hybrid rule, let forum members with more then X Posts, make for sale adds.

A) It rewards active ovas members (something I'd ASSUME the executive wants, activity)
B) If someone abuses the classifieds area (as people indicate has been done in the past) Ban their account. Yes, they can create a new account, but it has zero posts, so they cannot post for sale Items

[JetJumper]

hybrid rule, let forum members with more then X Posts, make for sale adds.

A) It rewards active ovas members (something I'd ASSUME the executive wants, activity)
B) If someone abuses the classifieds area (as people indicate has been done in the past) Ban their account. Yes, they can create a new account, but it has zero posts, so they cannot post for sale Items

This is a pretty effective rule to control a lot of the issues.

[bergenm]

---Deleted---

[Stussi613]

On a second note, im pretty sure that poll we did do a few months back, had an option if you were a member, non member, exec, and for the most part it was paying members that voted to open the forum. out of those members, how many did not see that post? how many read it and found it of no interest and continued on?

That's exactly what I'm saying, the poll had options for people to pick from and anyone could have picked anything.  Someone who was not an exec, and not a member of the club, put down that they were an exec and wanted the classifieds open.  My post was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek.  You're right, were not gong to get 118 members to a meeting, but its going to take more than a few people answering an uncontrolled poll to make me think the membership wants a change.

On a second note, to try and involve the club, you can always try andwork on a more personal socialisation. Find out what other peoples are doing with other hobbies and their work. Maybee others could see interest in other thing or exp. Say like myself. How many people here know that im a automobile mechanic, Im CWB 4G Certified and i pour concrete for a living??? not many, but if someone knew this, and was looking for some services, or help in these trades, i would love to give them a hand. Life isnt JUST about the fishy's   Try it out Call it the local Skills Page by knowing the member, and not just his tank, could help socialize ovas and get more people to the meetings cause they will enjoy to come down sit and chit chat, listen to the speakers, they will know that there are 4-5-10-15-50 people that he knows that will greet him with a smile, he will feel more comfortable knowing more people than just being a stand alone sailor. and i think this is the BIGGEST killer these days with all the social electronic media, people are becoming more and more "sketched-out" i guess about large crowds of unknown people, even if these people are the ones you talk with everyday, you still feel "out of place" on that note, maybee its just the overall lack of salties to attract the other salties to the meetings because we all know you guys try your best to make us happy.

We tried to implement a social aspect at the meetings this year, but maybe your idea of getting people introduced to each other in a more social aspect online will help to make them more comfortable coming to the meetings.  Thanks for your suggestion!

CHEERS to OVAS

I agree with this 150%

Stuart

[charlie]

That's exactly what I'm saying, the poll had options for people to pick from and anyone could have picked anything.  Someone who was not an exec, and not a member of the club, put down that they were an exec and wanted the classifieds open.  My post was intended to be a bit tongue in cheek.  You're right, were not gong to get 118 members to a meeting, but its going to take more than a few people answering an uncontrolled poll to make me think the membership wants a change.

We tried to implement a social aspect at the meetings this year, but maybe your idea of getting people introduced to each other in a more social aspect online will help to make them more comfortable coming to the meetings.  Thanks for your suggestion!

I agree with this 150%

Stuart

Just a not of history, it use to be possible to get over a 100 people consistently @ meetings with standing room only, hence the reason we were asked to find a bigger venue, because we were breaking fire codes @ Jack Purcell.
Regards