No action in saltwater ?? And classifieds

[Fishnut]

I joined that facebook group from across the river at the recommendation of some folks on this site to see what was going on there today. More active than here and there are only 147 members. I think I saw somewhere in this thread that OVAS was proud that there were 125 paying members. Ummm.... I realize you need to raise funds to make this go but does not reaching out to everyone who cares about aquariums add more value to your sponsors than collecting a whopping $2500? I don't know what the sponsors pay but you aren't likely to give them their money's worth or be able to extract more money if nobody comes to the site.

I don't think saltwater is dead or even close to dying in Ottawa. I think that there are many, many people in the hobby but they just don't care about OVAS. Frankly I am one of them. However, I think one unified forum for saltwater would be the best thing that we could have and I'd say this is the place that has the best chance of making it happen at the moment. The fragmentation is just making all the sites light on content and not particularly interesting. My guess is if something dramatic isn't done that this forum won't see another year. Again, just the opinion of somebody who isn't really relevant to OVAS so please don't take offence. I would love to have a strong local forum to participate in. I used to go to the MASOs back in the AC days (that's where I met Az years ago in fact), and it would be great to have a place to find people to swap frags with locally and just to have a community of like-minded hobbyists to share with and to lean on when things go wrong. The kindness of local OVAS participants have saved me huge on one occasion. You can't get that any other way.

Making the classifieds free - one small part of fixing the problem. Lightening up the policies perhaps another. i don't know what needs fixing but in my humble opinion it's broken and something needs to be done to save this site - freshwater and saltwater. I would love to care. I really would. My plea to those that work hard to make this site go - please lighten up - let people in and let them have full access to everything. This site is worth saving.

Again respectfully.

In my experience, OVAS has been having trouble with this website...this forum for a very long time.  The people who have been coming here in the last few years are not all looking for the sense of community and sharing within the aquarium hobby.  They are not really wanting to stick around and learn and not willing to help out.  They want everything cheep, free and specifically catered to what they want.  Nobody seems to want to do anything in the club unless it caters to their niche of the hobby and I'm sorry but (here's where you all hate me) saltwater people are the worst at this!!  I've said it over and over again.  

The rules that are in place now are there because there were enough jerks in the years before who were boldly breaking the rules then were very agressive confrontational and foul mouthed to anyone who tried to enforce any codes of conduct or basic rules.  There were those who didn't hesitate to tell someone off on the forums for everyone to read if their opinion wasn't agreed with and others who went out of their way to make others look bad.  This website was a very unfriendly place to visit and therefore caused so much trouble that we almost lost the club due to so many people quitting the exec.

Then there are the users and abusers who were running rampant in the classifieds.  How many people are involved in the other group who are ONLY there to make money from it's patrons and not contributing in the slightest to the organizations or the group?  How would you feel if you knew that there was a guy who didn't want to help with the financial upkeep of the organization but wanted unlimited access to everyone involved to use that access SOLELY for making money and saving on advertising?  Those people are not welcome on OVAS yet they just kept coming in waves.

So, here we are now.  People couldn't be trusted to act civilly and follow the easy going set of rules so we implemented a more strict set of rules and closed the classifieds to everyone unless they contributed to the club.  This is what we get when too many people can't seem to act civilly.  Not only that, it was not fair for those serving on the exec who took an incredible amount of abuse...VOLUNTEERS had to take the abuse.  If you want things back to the way they were before the strict rules were implemented and before the classifieds were locked down, the membership fees are going to up significantly because we'll have to HIRE a team of moderators to deal with all the nasty stuff that will come up...even then we might have trouble keeping staff if they're verbally abused the way some of the past exec was.  You guys are all sheltered from it.  You start these threads thinking we're all a bunch of power mongers, jerks, etc.  We're not.  

Sometimes I think these posts are started purposely to shine a negative light on OVAS to make the other group look so much better.  I truly hope this is not the case because THAT embodies this club's issues.

If you want a better OVAS experience, stop criticizing and complaining on a website.  Get involved.

Maybe the club would be better off if all we had was a facebook page.

[Sandy]

I agree with delslo I too was a member of KWAS before I moved here and the classifieds are free for everyone. Some people that are in the hobby would prefer to deal with other hobbyist here, but some of us due to layoffs, and other reason can't afford the memberships. Some years you can but some years you can't. We then shouldn't be penalized for our financial situation. I would love to deal with other peole on this forum buying, selling, giving away and trading. I feel that by giving everyone that opportunity traffic would increase. When I worked at a LFS here I told all my customers to check out this site for some great deals.
It is also a great way to meet other people that are in the hobby possibly make some new friends. I know I would feel more comfortable coming to meeting etc and get more involved in the club if I knew some people.

[bandit]

So that some it up, I guess its our fault for trying to make things better. Seems the MODS aren't willing to listen to our plea's.

It sad to say but I dont see myself here much longer.

AND IN NO WAY WAS THIS POST STARTED TO MAKE THE OTHER GUYS LOOK GOOD, I WAS ONLY MADE AWARE OF THEM BECAUSE OF OVAS'S SHORTCOMINGS. I AM ACTUALLY OFFENDED


This was started to try and see if we could do something to help and get idea's from other members to save this ONCE great club. Unfortunately all it did was get defensive comments and finger pointers.

THIS WILL BE MY LAST ATTEMPT TO BE HEARD, PLEASE LISTEN

[Darth]

I have said this before and say it again the problem here is ovas is not a forum, the forum is a subsidiary of the club, and the club being mostly freshwater hobbyist, which I get I know the club has tried to get more saltwater people to the meetings and what not, and to become members. What I can say for me, is I don't attend the meetings, I don't go to the auctions and what not as time does not permit, and in all honesty I am just not a social person. So that being said I don't see the need to pay for a membership to something I am only go to use 10% of, I come here ONLY for the forum, I come here to see the sponsors sales and stock and to converse electronically (again not a social person) the places I shop at don't offer an ovas discount, I used to post in the classifieds, I am a member now because it was gifted to me, but when I sell stuff I don't use the classifieds here on principle. I have heard over and over how the saltwater people ruined the classifieds which then you cut off to non-members, so that translates that there are very few saltwater members? Or perhaps the saltwater people were the ones that  the classifieds strive, and cutting  them off cut the supply and demand down as well? Perhaps there should be 2 levels of "membership" one for forum only and one card carrying member. I understand membership has privileges, but if none of those privileges benefit me, then they are not privileges, they become a hindrance . When I go to the store to buy bread I don't want to be told I can only have bread if I buy butter as well. I was waiting for this thread to become about the classifieds again, and again have the saltwater hobbyist blamed for it. Perhaps if there were more saltwater people on the board, this may be different, but since you have to be voted in, in a panel of all freshwater people I am sure this would not happen. Just my 2 cents. I used to come here everyday and this forum would be thriving, now its a dying place, and I wonder is it the saltwater people that are "breaking the rules" thats killing it, or is the freshwater people that are too oversensitive and complaining and trying to push the salties out as it has been stated before that "perhaps the salt people need their own forurum As I said there are a ton of forums out there, it was nice to have a local one, but it seems the club would rather us (saltwater) go somewhere else then listen with an open mind, instead of "it was voted and decided it was best for the club" well the way I see it, the participation in this "forum" has died, so I would tend to disagree  with what was "voted" that its best for the club

[daworldisblack]

Been following this thread and I think the whole Saltwater Vs. Freshwater discussion isn't what the OP intended. I think the main thing is that the whole debate on classifieds is back. There was a whole discussion last year on it as well and the response then was that we should give it a shot. It looks like from this thread the general consensus is that it isn't working. Not just for salties or freshies - in general it isn' working as it was intended. I think the specific external saltwater resources were mentioned to help with that opinion and also have it be relavant to the OP's concern so again the whole Freshies and Salties thing is not what was intended.

Having said that, I have noticed a sharp decline in the number of posts in the classifieds in general. As someone else mentioned, one used to be able to scroll through pages of them but that could also be due to how long the ad stays on before it expires. Perhaps the duration is shorter now. However it could also due to a lack of online users and activity. I have also talked to newbies who show up, 'get told off 'and they leave with their tails between their legs, feeling sad and rejected and slightly scornful at the perceived exclusivity. When I first started, I was ecstatic that such a club existed! I was really into killifishes then and so I posted a LF and also a forum post. I got responses via both methods. I also got equipment of the classifieds that other users had for sale and I was very encouraged to interact with the other members and participate. Now, if it were now, I'd have not been able to post the LF ad. I'd also be told that I can't post a thread that is of a LF nature and there isn't much on sale from other members to boot.

I am a member of many other forums and all these forums have classifieds open to all. I understand some of the issues behind why the classifieds were closed - its sad that volunteers have to deal with bull from randoms. However, there are tools available to help with moderation that members can help with. Voting? Reporting? Temporary Bans etc. There are many successful forums out there that do just fine so there must be something that we're not looking at? I love this forum and I love the community and its LOCAL thats why I would like to see this succeed and I strongly believe the classifieds limitation is perhaps something we need to take a second look at.

[Darth]

while  I agree it wasn't supposed to be sw vs fw, but somehow it always creeps its ugly head, and it always leads to it being sw posters being the reason it was closed off

[daworldisblack]

I wonder what a person who does both feels like.. does one reject the other side reading this post? They go all schizophrenic ? Lol.. I think the OP's post was a legit innocent one so lets keep that ugly head from rearing itself. This is something that affects all members.. fresh or salt.

[76brian]

I dunno about the fresh vs salt debate, and I'm a pretty new member who's only attended one event... but, from my perspective the club has some issues to work out before I will want to really be involved. I have an opinion though, of course

In my experience with online marketing, the LAST thing you want to do is drive visitors away from your site. Yet, that's exactly what you're doing when you say: "Classifieds are for members only. If you don't like it, go post for free on Kijiji". If you think that's going to make people want to stick around and participate in the forum or the club, you're wrong.

What incentive does a newbie have to stick around here if he can't post a "Wanted" ad, or even reply to a "For Sale" ad? If he buys something from a member of this site, he's more likely to stick around and get his info from our members and become a member himself. If he's driven off to Kijiji to do his shopping, it's much less likely.

Look at it from a sellers perspective too. I can tell you 100% if I'm selling something, I'll post it on Kijiji first. Why? Because people don't have to pay a fee to reply to my ad over there. What incentive do I have to post here if my audience is going to be limited?

Very few people are going to pay for a membership just to post/reply to classifieds. Sure there might be some who do, but do you really want those members anyways? Sure, your numbers go up... but wouldn't you rather have quality members who participate in the forum and club events, as opposed to just being in it for buying and selling?

Closing the classifieds has taken all the focus away from the other benefits of being an OVAS member. I think having them open would do more good for the club than having them closed. After all, there are tons of reasons to join OVAS besides the classifieds, and that's where the focus should be.

[Stussi613]

Folks,

I keep reading comments about the "mods" not replying to this thread.  I'd like to clarify that the mods aren't responsible for any of the changes to the classifieds, nor do they set direction for the club.  They are a team of volunteers that work to ensure people are following the rules set out by the executive (from various years, not just this year).  I think some users might be using mods instead of execs.  The execs are meeting tonight and I intend to bring this thread up for discussion.  We are reading the thread and the opinions being expressed, and commenting to some degree.  I'm not saying that we will consider re-opening the classifieds, so please don't jump to that conclusion.

With that being said, the issues that Fishnut is referring to were the reason for closing the classifieds.  I wasn't part of that decision, but I support it.  In reading all of the deleted threads and warnings in the archives the fact is that most of the perpetrators were salty's and most of them were members with high post counts - and all of them with multiple warnings about bumping ads and reposting items with slightly different specifications.  Allot of them were verbally abusive to the mods and it's all documented.  Does this mean that as a whole the salty community were the ones causing all the issues?  No.  But it's a valid point.

As Fishnut eluded to, and I was talking about in my last post, the fact that group buys are happening and people are selling frags on the Aylmer Salty's group doesn't surprise me.  It is a dedicated group to the salty community and it's activities are hosted and paid for by Facebook.  It's not a club like OVAS, its main focus is to provide a format for people to share information and purchase items on a medium that has become intrinsic in daily society.  OVAS has made some big changes to the monthly meeting by offering up swap tables with no auction costs and has reached out to the salty community to bring frags to the meetings.  There has been some success, but for the most part salty's don't attend the meetings.  We've brought in big name speakers to try to entice more salty activity in the club.  All of this has had moderate success, but we will continue to strive to openly welcome any and all local people to come out to club meetings and events.  The fact that AquaMania next month has salty content, by way of speakers, and an open inviation for people to come out and sell their items on the Saturday and in the auction shouldn't go unnoticed.  Remember, OVAS is taking on expense to provide this event to members, and non-members alike, FREE OF CHARGE.  The money to support this event is coming from membership purchases, sponsorship revenue and additional sponsor activity from some big name players in the aquarium trade specifically for AquaMania.

Maybe it's just me, and I only speak for myself, but I would think that if we focused on the positive things OVAS provides to the community, rather than just griping about not being able to post in the classifieds, this place would be better for everyone.

Stuart
OVAS Librarian and Head of the Moderation team

[daworldisblack]

Look at it from a sellers perspective too. I can tell you 100% if I'm selling something, I'll post it on Kijiji first. Why? Because people don't have to pay a fee to reply to my ad over there. What incentive do I have to post here if my audience is going to be limited?

Actually I believe non members can respond to ads, just not post one:

"The OVAS Classified boards are provided as a service to OVAS Club member users. All other forum users are able to view and respond to an ad but cannot post."

However your point on reaching a limited number of people is a legit concern.

[Cheebs]

I don't like how these posts, that are often not intended to, blow up into some big thing, become a place where everyone dumps every single concern they have, and are sometimes rude about it.

I also don't like how sometimes when valid points are brought up, they are lumped together with the crappy ones.

I've only been a member for 6 years or so, but never do I recall a crazy "Wild West" period with jackasses running the show and people getting told off left right and center by rude intruders. I have seen some true jerks come and go, don't get me wrong. I'm sure a good part of it is that the moderatos take care of it promptly, but up until a little while ago, I was checking ovas several times a day, all day and night. In any case, I am not saying this to undermine any moderators, because over the years I've truly been satisfied with how the forum runs and looks.

I used to be so, so excited to check the forums for new posts and fun stuff. I still am. But CLEARLY there is a disconnect between the chair members and the club members (and/or forum users). Never have I seen such discontent displayed on this forum. I have tried to remain "on the fence" about certain issues, but I do pipe up and let my opinion be known when I can.

Here we have a mixture of new and old members speaking up. Some are being too harsh. However, this is the inteenet. Intent, inflection and emotion are difficult to convey. It can be easy for someone to sit down in a huff, mash some rude words into the keyboard, and post it. I've done it before.

I want it to be like it was years ago, when everyone was happy, and the most active thread wasn't people being upset about something.

[76brian]

I would think that if we focused on the positive things OVAS provides to the community, rather than just griping about not being able to post in the classifieds, this place would be better for everyone.

I agree, but there would be no griping if it was never changed. It would not be an issue at all. The club brought it on themselves, IMO.

What did they expect?

"Yeah, so we're going to do this thing that people will complain about, and then tell them not to complain, and everything will be fine"

Seems pretty short sighted to me.

[Stussi613]

I agree, but there would be no griping if it was never changed. It would not be an issue at all. The club brought it on themselves, IMO.

What did they expect?

"Yeah, so we're going to do this thing that people will complain about, and then tell them not to complain, and everything will be fine"

Seems pretty short sighted to me.

Like I said, I wasn't a part of the decision...but to be honest I'd prefer not to go back to the mods having to spend 4+ hours a day each dealing with the constant disregard to the classifieds rules. 

The alternative would have been to not moderate the classifieds and the complaint threads would be "I posted an item 2 hours ago in the classifieds and it's already on page 9".

Stuart

[Fishnut]

Perhaps if there were more saltwater people on the board, this may be different, but since you have to be voted in, in a panel of all freshwater people I am sure this would not happen. Just my 2 cents.

Actually, for the last few years, the club has had no competition for positions and some people stepped up at the last minute to serve on the exec committee because nobody else would.

As I said before, if you want a better OVAS experience, come out from behind your computer and get involved.  OVAS is not about buying and selling stuff.  It's about people who share fish keeping info and successes.

[Darth]

honestly I don't want a better OVAS I want a better OVAS forum which I can do from behind my computer

[Feivel]

There used to be a lot of hours spent there, reading, learning, helping, growing..... They cut out all the means us salties were using to keep in touch, cause we would not go to the meeting (wich they claim is what the club is about) and did everything to push us away. they were upset with salty chat, they remodeled the site and removed it,Said there was a bug and would look into it, they had issues with the classifieds, they modified rules, then later after closed it down.When they closed the classifieds section the last time, i remember a poll voted on the members side and im pretty sure a strong % of voters wanted it to stay open, lots  of paid members some non members. And still the exec decided against opening the classifieds,

No offence, but you guys are digging your own grave. I used to love and look forwards to coming to OVAS and helping other have success with their reef tanks.... Some are upset at the fact that internet group orders have hurt the local saltwater economy, Others are happy at the savings that some people with no overhead can pass-on. I on the other hand return the favor, ask anyone who has come to my place for a frag, how much more have you left with? Just to help others out. I like to share and promote good things.  

Other than the shear beauty of the reef, i would throw in the towel and sell off everything and not have anything to do with reefing anymore because of all this turmoil, but it would not be fair to my pets to be tossed away like that because a few people are upset with me and dont want my precence in their stores. Go do your research and return when you know what your looking for..... great advice for a noob..... THATS why i helped build Aylmer Salty's HELP forum. To inform people of what they want before they go get it. help them learn from the noob curve, help them save $ so they dont get discouraged, in the long run its better for everyone in the reefing community to have as many SUCCESFULL hobbiests no matter the means .....

[fish]

You start these threads thinking we're all a bunch of power mongers, jerks, etc.  We're not.  

Sometimes I think these posts are started purposely to shine a negative light on OVAS to make the other group look so much better.  I truly hope this is not the case because THAT embodies this club's issues.

If you want a better OVAS experience, stop criticizing and complaining on a website.  Get involved.

I did not mean to criticize. I think I was respectful and only meant to offer an impartial view as a potential community member as I am on other reef sites. I see perhaps my thoughts are not welcome and so I will go back to not participating I guess.

[delslo]

Actually, for the last few years, the club has had no competition for positions and some people stepped up at the last minute to serve on the exec committee because nobody else would.

As I said before, if you want a better OVAS experience, come out from behind your computer and get involved.  OVAS is not about buying and selling stuff.  It's about people who share fish keeping info and successes.

You are absolutely correct, people should come out and participate in the meetings, and should absolutely help out at the events, unfortunately not everyone's' schedule works with the OVAS schedule, I for example work 6 days a week and as much as I love the community I don't have the time to come out to the meetings or get involved more than the key strokes I perform daily.

Next, you are correct OVAS is not a place to buy and sell things it is a club who's goal is to educate, inform, assist, and spread the love of fish keeping that we all share. That said saving money is a much stronger incentive to check the forums daily than what did so and so say today. In addition the classifieds brings in new members, I am one of them.
I am bothered by the whole the salty's are to blame for the classifieds being taken away, although there may be some merit to the statement the freshy's aren't innocent either. In addition this thread originally began with a statement about the decreasing number of posts in the saltwater forum. Over the past few days there has been far more interest in this thread than any other. Perhaps we have lost sight of the original purpose of this thread, and instead should redirect some of our energy elsewhere.

Now I am both a freshy and a salty. I started with an artificial tank, then went to a planted, then to a high tech planted, moved to Ottawa and said I don't know much about salt so I started a tank and have been a salty for the past 2 years. I take great offence to the divide that people are creating, and I have to unfortunately perpetuate it to get my point across. We all enjoy the challenge of fish keeping, we all can contribute on both sides of the forum, so get over yourself, even if I didn't know salty stuff I could still contribute with people looking for plumbing stuff, or giving an opinion on the rock scape, or on the placement of plants in a freshy tank. We are all partly to blame for the decrease in activity.

I honestly believe that the activity of this thread has showed us all a few things:
1. Everything is not perfect in paradise
2. Some things need to change
3. We all have the time to post more often (this thread has exploded)
4. The divide between freshy's and salty's (hate those terms) has to go
5. OVAS is far from dead, whether or not we are willing to admit it we all care greatly about what happens to the site or we wouldn't have spent the time to read 4 big pages of postings to be able to relevantly respond to the topic

[Stussi613]

I've unlocked the thread. The exec has decided to continue leaving the classifieds closed for the rest of the season for reasons previously communicated in multiple threads.

OVAS also continues to welcome the salty society and encourages all members, forum and club, to come out to meetings and generally contribute to keeping OVAS a great resource for local fish keeping.

Stuart

[Fishnut]

For the record, the SW people have never been singled out as the sole culprits.  There have been a few FW people as well.  There are just far more SW people who have been awful than the FW...as in I lost count of the SW jerks a long time ago, compared to the FW jerks who I could probably count on one hand.  Not to stir up more debate, but look at this thread as an example...SW related.

I don't get it!!!

So...those who are angry about the classifieds...who's going to step up to the plate and moderate it?  You'll have fun dealing with the complaints and taking the verbal abuse when you do anything that prevents malicious posters from ruining things.  You'll get to spend hours at it every day, including during the work day...on your breaks and lunch, before work, after work and after dinner because that's how much work it will take to keep up with all the malicious posters who are guaranteed to come out of the woodwork in droves.  Your spouse will need to stop asking to spend time with you, your kids will need to see you less and your personal life will have to be less of a priority because you'll need to moderate more and more as the malicious posters abuse your fellow moderators and they quit.  Oh yeah...I forgot to mention...this is a non-paid position.

Any takers?