No action in saltwater ?? And classifieds

[Fishnut]

I'm guessing you missed this part...

sigh  

No, I didn't.

[Darth]

I brought up the idea of using the Facebook page for non-members to post items for sale, trade, free and looking for and it didn't get a single response so its pretty clear to me (and by that I mean personally, not speaking for the club) that the issues people have with the closing of the classifieds has more to do with the fact that they were removed from the forum than having a place to post items...but I've been wrong before.

there were many other options brought up as well, yet not one of the execs has ever chimed in to even discuss this, because this was mentioned, and no one commented on it, means there is more to the reasoning? Where is the logic in that, there were other suggestions, but because this one was opted for by an exec this is the one that is used, in my opinion saying here this is the idea, oh you don't like it too bad, what about all the other options that not one person said anything about? I thought it was a place to throw out ideas, and have the execs talk about it. Yet here we go again back to the same thing

There are those who were using  OVAS as their own personal marketing venue and not even willing to pay $20 towards the club in support.  If you sell hundreds in frags over the course of a year, buying a $20 would be a nice way to say thanks to an organization for providing the medium for you to sell so much.  OVAS was exploited.

So how can OVAS tell the difference between someone who does this as a hobby and wants to share and someone who is more than just a simply hobbyist?  What should OVAS tell it's members (who's money it is that pays for this website) that they are helping pay for something that others get for free and are exploiting?

and once again here we are with all the negativity been thrown around, it seems a lot of this is stemming from your words, I think you need a time out here

I can attest to that personally, when i was moderating the c;assifieds were open, but there was non bumping policy for non members, one such non member bumped his post to which i followed the rules & removed it with a PM to the person explaining why it was removed, the person then went on line bought a membership through the Pay PAl store & immedietly bumped his ad again i removed it - i got an abusing PM from the said member, what the tyrant did not know is when you purches a membership through the Pay Pal the notification goes to the webmaster & it can take days before it filters down to the Mod.That`s the kind of abuse a volunteering mod has to put up with.
Charlie

and again we have heard this over and over again, saying how abused the mods are over and over doesn't make it easier to understand, we get it

This whole thread has once again come back to this, people have given ideas, One exec had made a suggestion and then pouted when no one said it was a good idea, well there were a ton of other ideas as well, but all decisions have to made by the execs, so did the execs VOTE and say let them put it on facebook? I doubt it, so don't blame the users because no one chimed in. All the execs have done (with the exception of one) have just either started a war and then fueled the fire, or reiterated again what we all heard, but guess what, not one exec has chimed in on a way to help the club, not a peep. Its sad because when this thread started to turn around I was like great this is going to work, but alas, once again you have failed so hats off to you ovas!! Way to go!

[ajm1961]

Given the raw emotions about the classified policy, I personally find it difficult to wade into the discussion without feeling that whatever I will say will be criticized. This could be the very reason a number of other executives, or other members for that matter, prefer to keep silent.

I am glad that of our members have chimed in with some suggestions - there is a passion out there, and that means people care. That's better to me than indifference.  I won't discount or debate any of these suggestions right now. I prefer taking some time to consider them carefully and see how these can be worked out as a whole, with the best interests of the membership and the goals of the club.

If the expectation is that we make all these suggestions happen right away, and in particular, reverse the decision about the classified policy, I don't think that is the way to go. We need to find lasting solutions that both facets of the club (face-to-face and virtual) will find agreeable and fair, while contributing positively to the club's goals. We can't afford to switch policies around every year - this is becoming  confusing, and will only serve to alienate people even further.

In the end I hope we all want the same thing: a thriving club - a place where new and experienced hobbyists can gather either face-to-face or virtually to learn from each other, share the joys of our hobby, as well as promote to the community at large. Obviously how we achieve those objectives is paramount to the club's success.

In 2014, OVAS will celebrate 60 years of existence. We have come a long way since its creation, and I believe it is something worth preserving for future generations. Let's try to make that happen together: salties, freshies, and plantaholics - face-to-face or virtually. But most of all, with respect and collaboration.

[Stussi613]

Darth,

I just re-read all 7 pages of this thread to make sure I didn't miss anything.  If I did, I apologize.

Other than suggestions to re-open the classifieds, which the president of the club has stated will not be entertained by this exec, the only other options presented require serious recoding of the website. Introducing a middle membership tier, or a limited number of free posts by non-members is very easy to propose, but much harder to implement. The post approval may be easier.  I'm not going to speak for the webmaster, but I would presume she will agree when she's back from vacation.  Regardless, Fishnut posted that she would ask the webmaster about this and we will follow up to see if it can be done.

In regards to this:

One exec had made a suggestion and then pouted when no one said it was a good idea, well there were a ton of other ideas as well, but all decisions have to made by the execs, so did the execs VOTE and say let them put it on facebook?

I'm not pouting, I offered an immediate solution to a problem voiced by non-members over and over again...one that has been pointed out numerous times works for the Aylmer Salty's very well...yet there was no discussion at all about it.  If people really just want a place to put things up if they aren't members the Facebook page fits the bill and its something a lot of people use everyday already.  If its a bad idea then I can accept that and move on.

I find it kind of sad that you keep saying we aren't listening to the voices being expressed here. In the past this thread would have been locked about three pages ago, but I'm leaving it active to promote POSITIVE discussion.  We may not agree with each other, but I feel like I've been fair and I've listened to what people have say.  Just because we aren't immediately implementing changes based on what is discussed here doesn't mean we are just ignoring what people are saying.

Stuart

[Darth]

I am not saying no one is listening I am saying the powers that only chime in to reiterate that the classifieds were voted closed, and that decision is final, and I UNDERSTAND that, and wish EVERYONE would stop rehashing it. Yet ppit keeps happening and this thread has been locked unlocked and in an off way be threatened to be loctked again "the fact that you let it remain open" speaks to what I am trying to get across. My point is the only ideas we have heard from the execs has been from you stussi, and for that I thank you, yet fishnut (not the first time in this thread or other threads) just berates everyone, intentional or unintentional the posts, posted by fishnut have caused a lot of heat on this thread, and my point is, if you have nothing positive to contribute stay out, you, the president, or anyone else telling everyone over and over the classifieds are closed is not changing anything. Perhaps letting us know that these ideas are being heard, and not just oh this this about classifieds being closed and we are not gonna open them again. No one expects a decsision to be made overnight, but as ,members do we not have any input? Or is it well thanks for ideas, but the execs aren't gonna listen, and we are gonna keep the classifieds closed, and the mods for the classifieds is a full time job, and blah blah. I think you have an entire community here begging to be allowed to participate, and not be told if you want to change, then sign up to be an exec. Maybe the members want to have a say in how the club is run, but don't want to be an exec. There are a few exec postions, and a lot more members, so what I am suggesting is maybe the execs need to poll the members of this club, the people who pay, not the execs that get a free membership ( and yes I know you donate your time, but lets face it money  talks) yes as I stated you guys  are there to set stuff up, and organize things, and yes its a thankless job sometimes. But perhaps if the members were included more it wouldn't be an us against them attitude. I don't want this thread to be a fight, I don't want it to be about the classifieds, I want it to be about the club, and the club is not just the execs, I don't see why decisions such as this should be left to 10-12 people or whatever it is. Maybe if the members were included in this decision it may go smoother. Stussi this is nothing against you, as I said its nice to have your input, as you seem to be the only only who is able to or willing to see through the fog. But in all honesty this whole thing is getting frustrating, and I am not gonna start a thread of how can I cancel my account, because again that is just blowing smoke, and trying to rally more ammo to us and get people riled up for all the wrong reasons, if you don't want to be a part of the club, then just stop coming I say. I think the club needs to come together as a whole, the execs need to include it's members on decisions that effect them either indirectly or directly. After all the club does not belong to the execs, but to all of us, and I think we all need to start to realize that if we are going to get over this speed bump that seems to be getting bigger and bigger, I wish we as a club can just put this to bed, and move on. As they saying goes united we stand divided we fall. Right now we are club with serious fractures to the foundation, and we will soon be divided and fall

[Stussi613]

I really appreciate what you are saying Darth.  Any OVAS member has a right to be heard, whether on the forum, in person at a meeting or by requesting to come to an exec meeting and make a case for something.

Sometimes it's easy to get caught up in trying to shape the direction the club will go for the season, just as its easy to get caught up in trying to continue something that was done by the previous exec to make the club better. 

The biggest challenge with these posts is what you have eluded in your previous posts. It's hard to get to a point of being constructive when multiple parties, forum members, regular members and even some of the exec are taking it in a direction that is negative.  I hear what you are saying and the exec is reading this thread so I'm sure there will be discussion on some of the point you've brought up in the future.

Lastly, I'm sorry it has come across as a threat that I'll lock the thread again.  There was a time when this thread would have been locked on page 2.  I did lock it several times to allow people a chance to cool off, as it were.  I don't want anyone to think that I'm holding the "I'll lock it" statement as a threat, but if things get out of hand again I don't really have a choice.  At the end of the day I'd love it if there were never any reported posts, no posts being edited or deleted and no threads being locked, but unfortunately its the reality of hosting an online forum.

Thanks for your input Darth, I appreciate it.

[Greatwhite]

I actually thought this thread was getting very productive there for a bit...  I think my goal (and others) was to brainstorm up some ideas that could be considered by the execs and members for future enhancement to the club and then to the forum.  Obviously, no REAL solutions to anything would be decided immediately here, although pointing people to the Facebook page is a great (free) start.

So, just to get the ball back on track... There were lots of suggestions in the thread, and it might help to group them into a growing list to avoid losing them in the 8+ pages.

1) Enhanced advertising at Sponsors... Sticker in a window and pamphlets on the counter directing new people in the hobby here for help in setting up
-  this is invaluable, by the way.  I've witnessed MANY people in certain LFSs looking for startup advice and getting wrong info - and I've tried to step in when possible to help people get on the right path

2) Take home advertising in the form of fridge magnets and aquarium thermometers
- might be interesting to expand this into a "starter kit" style goody bag containing pamphlets, starting up tips and cool little things as mentioned... kinda like welcome wagon... sponsors might include coupons?

3) 3 tier membership to allow free access to forums, or paid access to forum + classifieds, or paid access to forum + classifieds + membership to the club (card)
- I didn't see this as needing recoding of the site at all... The difference between forum only and forum + club is simply whether someone mails a card out or not..

4) Donate an aquarium and maintenance time to a public, charitable organization - like CHEO, with "This aquarium is provided by OVAS..."
- I like this.. just have to make sure that the maintenance DOES happen... Nothing worse than a neglected aquarium with someone's name on it.

5) Let non-members have 5 free classifieds posts per year..

6) let basement/home business sw or fw be a sponsor as long they are a registered business from around here.

7) organize more frequent workshops, meets etc, you dont need big guys, just hearing basics from everyday hobbyists help as we forget stuff all the time. you cant get discouraged if attendance was bad one time, you have to keep doing it.

if you have someone looking to volunteer let him, if one exec holds two positions you would barely keep up, there will be no progress.

9) add a clause in exec contract that when they get elected they need to hold the post for the duration, if its health reason sure, if not its unfair that you leave in the middle because you didn't get along with someone or you got busy etc. 

10) Add an approval step in posting classifieds to prevent duplication/bumping of posts

11) Partnering with sponsors for raffles/draws for gift card give aways with new members to the club/forum.

12) Start directing "free members" to the facebook page to post classfieds where moderation is not as important/difficult(?)

I think I got everything... And as you can see, there were some very good suggestions amongst the complaints and arguing.

Please feel free to add anything that I may have missed, or add any new ideas and keep the list growing.  This may very well be the most the exec team has heard from us in years..

[Peekay]

I'll add one!
13). Free memberships awarded annually to exemplary forum members:  people who post regularly over long time period, helpfully, positively, knowledgeably.  A spirit of OVAS forum ambassador membership, if you will.  There are some amazing people here that 'are' the club to people feeling out the idea of joining, assessing what the knowledge/attitude base of OVAS is. Critical to retention!   Save the cheerleader, save the world.

[Feivel]

Nice way to save it and bring the derailed train back on track great white

Some good suggestions as a whole there

[Greatwhite]

Nice way to save it and bring the derailed train back on track great white

Some good suggestions as a whole there

(It went against all I stand for to "un-derail" a conversation...) 

[dbl_dbl]

I've referred dozens and dozens of people to OVAS from Big Als, 95% of them (and a lot of them are real hobbyists) didn't even know OVAS existed. Not sure how a small non-profit org can get it's name out, and I can't think of too many solutions, but I thought I would point that out. The discount is a huge incentive! Meeting attendance is a tougher issue, you just have to make sure people feel comfortable and like they are joining a group of people all on the same level and with the same motivations.

I've been in a few different fish clubs and I've always noticed that the meetings can really start to drag if there's a superiority air, again I do not go to the meetings for OVAS so I don't mean to offend, that's just something I noticed from past groups as I got older. It was almost intimidating for the budding hobbyist! Good luck though, we need more great groups!

[Greatwhite]

I've referred dozens and dozens of people to OVAS from Big Als, 95% of them (and a lot of them are real hobbyists) didn't even know OVAS existed. Not sure how a small non-profit org can get it's name out, and I can't think of too many solutions, but I thought I would point that out. The discount is a huge incentive! Meeting attendance is a tougher issue, you just have to make sure people feel comfortable and like they are joining a group of people all on the same level and with the same motivations.

I've been in a few different fish clubs and I've always noticed that the meetings can really start to drag if there's a superiority air, again I do not go to the meetings for OVAS so I don't mean to offend, that's just something I noticed from past groups as I got older. It was almost intimidating for the budding hobbyist! Good luck though, we need more great groups!

Something that many "elite" aquarists forget is that they were beginners once too.  They made costly mistakes, learned from them, moved on.  They may have shared their learnings with people for the first little while, but then having to repeat the same things over and over wears on them and that's when they become stereotypical elitist jerks... (I haven't witnessed that HERE...)

I like to help people start up, but LOVE to see when people I helped step up and help someone who is where they were just a few months before.

[FocusFin]

I haven't visited the site for months and yet I knew when I logged in last week that there would be a thread devoted to problems/venting etc....

How did I know this, because it's been happening every session as long as I've been coming around (2006) and it will be there long after I'm gone. It's the nature of any club, committee, public group to vocalize differences of opinion or point out where things are going wrong (often perceived) or could be improved. Unfortunately, sometimes things go too far and you end up with a lot of bad feelings which (because there is minimal face to face) tend to linger for years.

Having said this, I too have noticed a significant drop off in traffic to the website. I have no doubt (in my mind) that it is related to the saltwater/classifieds issue and although membership may be as high as ever, the participation reflected in new topics, new posts and page views is about a third of what it was just two years ago. At least one sponsor has suggested the drop on the saltwater side is related to the economy, I doubt this for two reason. Following the 2008 economic meltdown, participation on the site went up in the months following. Also, we are not seeing people closing down their tanks as was the case in 2008-2009.

One would think that a drop in individuals buying and selling in the classifieds would have a positive impact on sponsor's sales but I think it is actually the opposite. The more traffic there is on the site, the more views the sponsor section gets which in turns leads to increased foot traffic. I can't count the number of times I've sold coral/fish to another member only to turn around and spend it at one of the sponsors.

There are three or four sponsors who represent the bulk of the traffic in the sponsor section (all saltwater) and while they may advertise on other sites in other cities, I would wager the majority of their business comes from customers in the immediate area and is largely a result of what they are advertising on this site.

The issue of the classifieds will continue to come up again and again and as the face of the Exec changes over the next few sessions the question to reopen to non-members will be raised. There has to be a workable solution to this issue so that saltwater club members and sponsors won't be penalized for the actions of a few who are abusing the system.

My solution for when the time comes to reopen the classifieds is to implement a near-zero tolerance for abuse. Lay out the rules once again, have members agree to the terms and then enforce it. First offense, issue a warning. Second offense, ban the account. BAN THE ACCOUNT! This avoids the inevitable arguing over "why was I banned". This type of system has been implemented elsewhere and appears to work. Will this cause some people to leave, sure, but then that's happened anyways.

I think the reality is that the club is split between freshwater, who enjoy the face to face meetings and saltwater who prefer the online forum for interacting. So cater to that. Don't waste your energy trying to get the saltwater side engaged and instead devote that time and energy to areas where they do participate, like the classifieds.

This problem is not going away and the sooner a lasting solution is found, the sooner we can move on to complaining about something else 

[Cheebs]

I haven't visited the site for months and yet I knew when I logged in last week that there would be a thread devoted to problems/venting etc....

How did I know this, because it's been happening every session as long as I've been coming around (2006) and it will be there long after I'm gone. It's the nature of any club, committee, public group to vocalize differences of opinion or point out where things are going wrong (often perceived) or could be improved. Unfortunately, sometimes things go too far and you end up with a lot of bad feelings which (because there is minimal face to face) tend to linger for years.

Having said this, I too have noticed a significant drop off in traffic to the website. I have no doubt (in my mind) that it is related to the saltwater/classifieds issue and although membership may be as high as ever, the participation reflected in new topics, new posts and page views is about a third of what it was just two years ago. At least one sponsor has suggested the drop on the saltwater side is related to the economy, I doubt this for two reason. Following the 2008 economic meltdown, participation on the site went up in the months following. Also, we are not seeing people closing down their tanks as was the case in 2008-2009.

One would think that a drop in individuals buying and selling in the classifieds would have a positive impact on sponsor's sales but I think it is actually the opposite. The more traffic there is on the site, the more views the sponsor section gets which in turns leads to increased foot traffic. I can't count the number of times I've sold coral/fish to another member only to turn around and spend it at one of the sponsors.

There are three or four sponsors who represent the bulk of the traffic in the sponsor section (all saltwater) and while they may advertise on other sites in other cities, I would wager the majority of their business comes from customers in the immediate area and is largely a result of what they are advertising on this site.

The issue of the classifieds will continue to come up again and again and as the face of the Exec changes over the next few sessions the question to reopen to non-members will be raised. There has to be a workable solution to this issue so that saltwater club members and sponsors won't be penalized for the actions of a few who are abusing the system.

My solution for when the time comes to reopen the classifieds is to implement a near-zero tolerance for abuse. Lay out the rules once again, have members agree to the terms and then enforce it. First offense, issue a warning. Second offense, ban the account. BAN THE ACCOUNT! This avoids the inevitable arguing over "why was I banned". This type of system has been implemented elsewhere and appears to work. Will this cause some people to leave, sure, but then that's happened anyways.

I think the reality is that the club is split between freshwater, who enjoy the face to face meetings and saltwater who prefer the online forum for interacting. So cater to that. Don't waste your energy trying to get the saltwater side engaged and instead devote that time and energy to areas where they do participate, like the classifieds.

This problem is not going away and the sooner a lasting solution is found, the sooner we can move on to complaining about something else 

Very well put, and I agree wiht everything your wrote.
Aside form the auctions, I've only been to perhaps 2 meetings in my 6 years here. It's not because I don't like the people or the subjects, everything is amazing. It's just how I am... I don't know.. I like commenting and helping on the site. I'm not big on going to meetings, and I rarely have time. But I still want to get the club back to as lively as it was a couple years ago.

As shown with any succesful company, website, individual or club - more internet exposure is the way to go nowadays. EVERYONE is on their phone, computer etc, several times a day. OVAS is succesful to be sure, but maybe somehow we can give it a little bump. Me (as well as a couple friends) came here for the classifieds, and stayed for the people and information.

[az]

#15  stop some sponsors post 5 one line threads in 5 minutes in order to push other sponsors' threads down.

#16  ban forum/ovas members who constantly send new visitors to other sites etc.

[Severum]

I agree with #15. Its the same as bumping abuse back in the old days of the classifieds. There is no place for it in OVAS or among sponsors.

[Jimbo]

I defintaley agree with Az on his points. Do we have a prominent "sticky" that notifies users they will be warned and later banned if they abuse these points?

I also liked GreatWhite's summary.

Some other ideas that i'd like to piggy back on from previous comments are:
- get the OVAS community to provide working groups. The exec doesn't need to do all the work themselves and neither should they. If there are a group of like minded people interested in a particular topic, the exec should utilize them by providing direction and asking them to brainstorm ideas and present their findings.

- the OVAS membership should be encouraged to go to the exec with ideas they want to pursue if there is enough interest in the community, and the idea is deemed as adding value to the OVAS community. Allocation of any OVAS funding or exec effort (if any) for each idea should be based on perceived value to the current and future membership.

- get the exec to bring decisions to the OVAS community when it affects the community.

- provide hands on work shops. For example; The planted tank community gave a great presentation on the best way to apply backgrounds on your tank. If I would have known how good the presentation would have been I would have filmed (or at the very least taken photos) and posted it in this forum. The only problem with this presentation was that there were only 10 people there to view it.

- OVAS web videos/tutorials. The amount of reading required to get started and be mildly successful in this hobby is staggering. If I had one place where I could have gotten reliable information, and access to knowledgable people, I would have saved a significant amount of time and money. Instead I currently have to sift through lots of sites, with often controdictary information to find an answer to something that should be trivial. Maybe OVAS should retire the library in favor of a learning centre?

Since I haven't seen too many suggestions for work shops/online tutorials, ones that I wish were available are:
General
1. Choosing a stand
   I. DIY vs prebuilt.
   II. Materials and construction.
   II. Cost differences.

2. How to build a stand
   I. Basic tank plans.
   II. Materials and costs.
   III. Common mistakes and lessons learned.
   IV. Where to get wood cut, if you're not that handy.
   V. Where to get a stand made, if you're really not handy.

3. Choosing a tank
   I. Acrylic vs glass - pros and cons
   II. Rimmed or rimless
   III. Does size matter
      a. Length vs width vs height
      b. Fish to tank ratio

4. Choosing lights
   I. Fluorescent, LED, metal halides, incandescent
   II. Pros and cons of each
   III. Costs - initial vs ongoing
   IV. Lifespan of your light
   V. Light output and where it would be used
   VI. How to hang your light and the options available
   VII. The pros and cons of timers

4. How to apply a background
   I. Background options - paint, vinyl, adhesive backing
   II. Pros and cons of each
   III. Recommended paints, vinyls, adhesive backings
   IV. How to apply paint, vinyl, adhesive backing
   V. Where to buy and cost

5. DIY
   I. CO2 reactor
   II. Sumps
   III. To many other DIY ideas to mention

6. Underwater Photography
   I. Equipment required
   II. How to light your tank
   III. How to setup your camera
   IV. Taking your first semi professional photo
   V. How to take a good photo

Freshwater
1. Introduction to freshwater
   I. Setup options - fish only, planted, brackish
   II. Tropical or cold water
   III. Pros and cons of each
   IV. Basic equipment required to get started and cost
   IV. Recomended equipment and cost
   V. Ongoing maintenance, time and cost
   
2. Setting up your first tank

3. Cycling your tank

4. Hitch hikers - the good and the bad
   I. Inverts
   II. Algaes
   III. How to get rid of the bad ones
   IV. Parasites and diseases and cures

5. Food
   I. Different types and which do you need for your tank
   II. How much food do you need to feed your tank
   III. The perils of over feeding
   IV. Make your own food
   V. Growing live food

6. Tank maintenance
   I. What needs to be cleaned/changed/replaced
   II. When do I need to clean/change/replace things

7. Breeding fish
   I. What is required
   II. Special considerations - temperature, lighting, feeding, breeder tank
   III. Which fish are "easy" to breed and which aren't
   IV. Looking after fry
   V. I've got a lot of baby fish, what do I do with them

8. Plants
   I. High and low light
   II. Plant care
   III. Easy plants to difficult plants

9. Water quality
   I. Checking your parameters
   II. Additives - the good and the bad
   III. How to "fix" bad water

Saltwater
1. Introduction to saltwater fish keeping
   I. Setup options - Fish only, coral and fish, coral only
   II. Pros and cons of each
   III. Basic equipment required to get started and cost
   IV. Recomended equipment and cost
   V. Ongoing maintenance, time and cost

2. Setting up your first tank
   I. Bare bottom or substrate
   II. Live rock
   III. Selecting you substrate
   IV. Cured or dry rock
   V. Basic rock designs
   VI. What goes in when
   VII. Water parameters and how to keepmthem stable

3. How to cycle your tank

4. How to cure live rock

5. Hitch hikers - the good and the bad
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water.

6. Food
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

7. Tank maintenance
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

8. Breeding fish
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

9. Introduction to corals
   I. SPS, LPS, mushrooms, zoos
   II. Coral care
   III. Easy corals to difficult corals
   IV. Coral warfare
   V. How to attach large and small corals to rocks
   VI. Remounting frags onto rubble

10. Advanced coral care
   I. Coloration
   II. Growth
   III. Light needs
   IV. Water flow
   V. Nutrients
   VI. Placement in the tank
   VII. Water quality

11. Fragging corals
   I. What is required
   II. How do I make a frag from an LPS, SPS, mushroom, etc
   III. How do I grow my frag

12. Water quality
   See freshwater section, but tailor for salt water

I'm not suggesting that any of the above recommendations form an exhaustive list and are acurate, but I am hoping that they serve a starting point for people interested in getting this kind of thing going.

Obviously, some of these workshops/tutorials will be longer than others. The purpose isn't to create the longest presentation, but to create the most complete and comprehensive workshops/tutorials that deal with a specific topic.

Please add on to the above ideas, and share your thoughts.

#15  stop some sponsors post 5 one line threads in 5 minutes in order to push other sponsors' threads down.

#16  ban forum/ovas members who constantly send new visitors to other sites etc.

[Stussi613]

Thanks for your input Jimbo!  Great points and well thought out.  The items you mentioned for the learning center are excellent.

As the head moderator for the club, I'll answer in regards to Az's points:

We can't stop sponsors from posting items in the forum. The timing of the posts being aside, if 10 other people started topics after a sponsor posts weekly specials it would have the same effect. 

The second point is noted, but if I understand what Az is saying the only way I can stop people from telling new users about other resources is if there is proof they are saying "stop using OVAS and start using x resource instead". The reality is that anyone on here can point people to places like reefcentral, nano-reef, cichlid-forums or plantedtank and there is nothing wrong with that.  With the myriad of resources out there, we can't say people who come to OVAS can only use OVAS any more than we can tell people they can only shop at OVAS sponsors, or that they have to buy products and livestock from stores vs people selling fry or items they have purchased in bulk from out of town.

Stuart

[veron]

I'd like to add my 2 cents, oh the pennies are gone    I think sponsors post of sales etc,, should be
in there own forum  and not attached to ''RECENT POSTS''   same as the classifieds are not attached.
IMO  the ''RECENT POSTS'' is for the hobbiest to get a quick glance. Maybe the STORES could hace a banner
were you click on it if you want to know whats in or on sale.
ALSO, I think store owners/sponsors  should be only able to post on there own forum and no longer as a
hobbiest in general areas. To me this creates a fair playing field. All these ideas are already in pace in most
large Hobbiest sites. Also, most of the OTTAWA valley fish/coral people know were the stores are.

[veron]

Also, Classifieds should be free to all hobbiests who sign up at OVAS. We buy stuff, we sell stuff and we create newer
hobbiests whom shop at the sponsors stores.