No action in saltwater ?? And classifieds

[charlie]

Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?
Regards

[Darth]

Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?
Regards

I don't recall seeing any questiions that went unanswered

[FocusFin]

Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?

I gave up giving advice because (my advice) was generally ignored unless it was what the person wanted to hear. I decided, why make the effort trying to help someone when they just end up doing what they want in the end anyways.

Maybe it's different on the freshwater side.

[Cheebs]

I think some of the comments here may be a little harsh... I've always enjoyed reading the threads in saltwater, and I feel like most questions get addressed in a pleasant manner with thanks given. There are always exceptions of course, but don't give up because of a couple misfires!

[FocusFin]

I think some of the comments here may be a little harsh... I've always enjoyed reading the threads in saltwater, and I feel like most questions get addressed in a pleasant manner with thanks given. There are always exceptions of course, but don't give up because of a couple misfires!

You're right, I shouldn't have generalized so I've edited my post to reflect only my experiences.

Maybe my advice wasn't very good 

[charlie]

I don't recall seeing any questiions that went unanswered

Darth you may want to revert to post # 1 in this thread.
Regards

[Greatwhite]

Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?
Regards

There is probably nothing exciting happening with anyone's tanks to share. That's why this thread started so innocently and went straight downhill. People are bored.

But as Darth said - the few posts in the salt section have been handled to completion.

[Jimbo]

The way I see it we don't really know what the card carrying membership wants, and I hate to be blunt but I'm not really interested in dealing with all the issues of moderation that will entail because 12 out of 16 of the people who answered the poll want them re-opened.  In my mind a majority vote to re-open the classifieds needs 2/3 of the members to vote yes, and that means 118 of the 177 members coming to a meeting with their cards and putting their hands up.

Just to add my two cents worth...

According to the clubs Constitution, it only takes 3 members in good standing to request the constitution be changed:
1. To amend or repeal this Constitution or any part of it, it shall be necessary that the proposed amendment be presented in writing signed by at least three members in good standing.

2. The proposed amendment shall be read at the next regular meeting and voted on at that time.

3. The affirmative vote of the majority of all members in attendance shall be required for the adoption of an amendment to this constitution.


If members really want to bring the "classifieds issue" to a vote, then I would suggest they follow the procedure as outlined above.

For your information, I believe this procedure was used in the January 2013 meeting to change the membership price based the date a member joined.

[Greatwhite]

The majority of people complaining about the classifieds are not Ovas members...  There is nothing there about non-members making changes to policies/constitutions. 

Also, getting something brought up at a meeting doesn't guarantee that any changes will happen. It sounds like the exec team is set against opening up the classifieds, and they inevitably have final say...  It is simply too time consuming to keep the classifieds open to everyone.

[Darth]

Darth you may want to revert to post # 1 in this thread.
Regards

Yes please show me one thread where someone had asked for advice that went ignored. Please , you can't do it and the OP of this thread that u pointed out, I believe is getting his wish, just look at this thread it is 10 pages long this is the most active thread  that forum has seen in months. The members paid and non-paid have always helped people with their questions or issues. So perhaps you are seeing things that I don't. I believe your question or concern was a bit off kilter and not sure where u came up with this thought. So please feel free to prove me wrong , perhaps someone's need fell through the cracks, but I highly doubt it

[Hookup]

Maybe the project manager in me is speaking, but I see absolutely no actions that are being confirmed or taken as a result of this thread.  Just some 250 posts, and no decisions and/or actions/next-steps.

[Greatwhite]

...  And what's worse, the arguments are being fueled by (what can be perceived as) snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president.

If nothing is going to come out of this conversation, then it seems to me that this conversation needs to end so we can all move on with our lives, no?

[Darth]

Maybe the project manager in me is speaking, but I see absolutely no actions that are being confirmed or taken as a result of this thread.  Just some 250 posts, and no decisions and/or actions/next-steps.

...  And what's worse, the arguments are being fueled by (what can be perceived as) snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president.

If nothing is going to come out of this conversation, then it seems to me that this conversation needs to end so we can all move on with our lives, no?

I agree with both these statements, the only exec so far that has tried to at least listen as been stu, but it is going to come down to again thanks for all your input we will take into advisement, and then be done, the request has been made (by me) to keep the members in the loop, so it as it has been said before it is going to be an us vs them attitude that I would like to say stems from both sides, but it seems in my opinion that execs have the it's my ball and we will play the way I want to play attitude towards it but thanks for coming out anyway *shrugs*

[charlie]

...  And what's worse, the arguments are being fueled by (what can be perceived as) snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president.

If nothing is going to come out of this conversation, then it seems to me that this conversation needs to end so we can all move on with our lives, no?

Greatwhite, your key word in that statement is-"what can be perceived as snarky comments from the exec body -- including the president".

I can assure you my comments  are not meant to be snarky, it`s just at times someone has to chip in with a different, i tend not to respond to many topics for concern that my style can cause that very comment.
I have followed every post in this thread & agree 100% with your input, unfortunately it`s hard to stay quiet as a member ( not a President) when you read callus remarks made by some that openly states they will never be a member of the club but still insist on telling the volunteer Execs. how they should run the club.
My personal opinion ( as along time member) is that there is a clear mis understanding of  what OVAS is & is measured against other organisations that is not what OVAS is.This is not to say they are not some very good suggestions made by a few & we as an Exec. has noted them.
Regards Errol

[Darth]

I have followed every post in this thread & agree 100% with your input, unfortunately it`s hard to stay quiet as a member ( not a President) when you read callus remarks made by some that openly states they will never be a member of the club but still insist on telling the volunteer Execs. how they should run the club.
My personal opinion ( as along time member) is that there is a clear mis understanding of  what OVAS is & is measured against other organisations that is not what OVAS is.This is not to say they are not some very good suggestions made by a few & we as an Exec. has noted them.
Regards Errol

in regards to this, perhaps those people who  claim they would never be a member would change their minds if they saw some change here, any type of movement.
As I understand how this "club" works is the paying member has no say on how the "club" functions, now of course they can make any suggestion they want, but end of the day it's the execs who "vote" and decide how the club is run. So in reality its up to a few to tell the masses how its going to work. I love the 'we have heard the suggestions and noted them" I use this tatics with my kids when they want something I say "we'll see" it keeps them from asking while I already know what they want is not gonna happen, I get the same feeling here, its like please suggest all you want, its all being noted (but the reality is the execs like the way it is now, and its not gonna change) I get the execs volunteer their time to do things for the club, and its been done this way for how ever many years, but the last few years, it has not been working. Have the execs ever asked what the club wants? What do its members want from it's club. The response is always the same, if you want to suggest things come to the meetings, well unfortunately that may not be an option for most. It has been stated before, the face to face thing is becoming a dinosaur, yet the execs all insist this is the way it is to be done (yet it is clearly not working) It has been said over and over that the forum is not the club, yet it is the in my opinion the main part of this club with out it, this club would disappear in a heartbeat in my opinion. And I stated even through all this I have not seen any exec ask what the club wants. We hear how memberships are up from last year, but how many of those were bought by sponsors? How many were bought when you had the big push and were at the retailers, and out of those sold how many showed up to the forum or the meetings?

You say "there is a clear misunderstanding of what ovas is and & is measured against other organizations this is not what OVAS is" so please elaborate and explain to me at least what is ovas being measured against and what is OVAS since there is so much misunderstanding, as a long time member and president please clear this up for me, because I am obviously confused.

[Hookup]

I wanted to re-extract what you posted as I think it deserves further highlight as it is, IMO critical.

there is a clear mis understanding of  what OVAS is

So there are no miss understandings, would you clarify for this thread. I know you've done this a few times before but its not sticking... so for benefit of this thread it would be good.  I've stated my interpretation, as a non-member and ex-member, (and possible future member again for that matter as you never know what the future holds for OVAS).

[charlie]

in regards to this, perhaps those people who  claim they would never be a member would change their minds if they saw some change here, any type of movement.
As I understand how this "club" works is the paying member has no say on how the "club" functions, now of course they can make any suggestion they want, but end of the day it's the execs who "vote" and decide how the club is run. So in reality its up to a few to tell the masses how its going to work. I love the 'we have heard the suggestions and noted them" I use this tatics with my kids when they want something I say "we'll see" it keeps them from asking while I already know what they want is not gonna happen, I get the same feeling here, its like please suggest all you want, its all being noted (but the reality is the execs like the way it is now, and its not gonna change) I get the execs volunteer their time to do things for the club, and its been done this way for how ever many years, but the last few years, it has not been working. Have the execs ever asked what the club wants? What do its members want from it's club. The response is always the same, if you want to suggest things come to the meetings, well unfortunately that may not be an option for most. It has been stated before, the face to face thing is becoming a dinosaur, yet the execs all insist this is the way it is to be done (yet it is clearly not working) It has been said over and over that the forum is not the club, yet it is the in my opinion the main part of this club with out it, this club would disappear in a heartbeat in my opinion. And I stated even through all this I have not seen any exec ask what the club wants. We hear how memberships are up from last year, but how many of those were bought by sponsors? How many were bought when you had the big push and were at the retailers, and out of those sold how many showed up to the forum or the meetings?

You say "there is a clear misunderstanding of what ovas is and & is measured against other organizations this is not what OVAS is" so please elaborate and explain to me at least what is ovas being measured against and what is OVAS since there is so much misunderstanding, as a long time member and president please clear this up for me, because I am obviously confused.

Darth , i have no itnetnions of getting into a month long debate, you live very close to me & always welcome to pop over or we can go to the timmies & chat one on one, i can learn from you first hand & you can learn from me.
Reaosn for not getting into a debate in this thread or others similar is quuite simple anything i say will be easily scewed as the "President/Exec." ande most probably never taken as a long standing member with a passion for OVAS the club.
I keep alluding to the 'CLUB" for very good reason.
There is also a good reason that one person from the exec. speaks on behalf of the club & exec on this forum.
See Hookup`s post on his interpretation of what OVAS is, i`ve said it several times.
Regards

[Greatwhite]

There's a reason that I said that the comments can be perceived in a certain way.  I know all too well how emails can be misread and the tone can be misconstrued into something that was completely unintentional.  I also know that after getting nailed over and over on something that sometimes a response can be sent to hastily and that "snarkiness" IS there.  Trust me - I've gotten in trouble for this MANY times over the years.

My comment was not meant to be one sided, but I do have to ask -was this random, unprovoked post necessary?

Another thing that puzzles me - I`m impressed by the # of post in this thread, why are you guys not posting in the freshwater & saltwater forums to help other hobbyist?

There have been questions in the salt section that had not gone unanswered, which is what Darth said.  So you directed him at post 1 in this thread - which has been answered to death....

Don't get me wrong.  There were times that it saw that non-members (and some members) were pushing buttons to get a reaction to use against the club...  I've seen it, as have others.  Unfortunately, in positions of authority, your hands are tied and you can't react the same as a standard OVAS member - or a forum only user.  Basically, what I've learned over the years is that when you're "the boss", you're not allowed to have voice own opinion - because you are speaking for EVERYONE. If you do want to speak up "as a standard member", sometimes it's handy to have a separate account that is not tagged as "President" so that you can speak your mind without the weight of the club riding on your words. (sometimes a little anonymity is a good thing)

I went so far as to try get this thread (and others) back on track to be productive, only to have it derailed again by people on either "side".

It's been said many times that the forum is NOT the club.  The forum is a service being provided BY the club, for the benefit of people in the area who need help, and might be enticed to join the club after seeing how helpful the people here are and seeing the benefit of being a member.  Being a forum user does not mean you have a say in how the club is run, but you probably should be allowed to comment on how the forum is set up (within reason).  Asking to have classifieds opened is not telling you to change in how the club works.

I've suggested (as a paid member who doesn't use the classifieds much) that if people argue about the classifieds system, just remove it...  Another solution is - open it right up, and then refer to this entire conversation when the posts in there are running rampant and people complain that their ads are on page 18 after 2hrs. Basically, don't waste the volunteer execs time moderating them...

I think that all some members are looking for is an acknowledgement of the issues that have been brought up here, and assurance that they would be taken into consideration at the next exec meeting, as Hookup suggested - with Action Items... and then publicize the results of those Action Items to the members.

In real life, I'm a president/owner of a software consulting company - and there's MANY times nearly every day that I have to smile and nod and keep my own reaction quiet.  "We will take that request into consideration" is tattooed on my forehead...  I'm sure Hookup and others in similar positions have the same...

[ajm1961]

"We will take that request into consideration"

That's exactly it, but - at least from my part - the consideration for any changes will not happen until after AquaMania. The current exec is fully busy in putting together the biggest event in recent OVAS history (I think the last time we had anything as extensive is probably in the 70s when we last hosted the CAOAC conference).

Personally I do not think any changes to the classified situation will be made until the next exec is voted in. We're almost done with this season, and quite frankly many of us are barely making it to the finishing line given all the activities we've had to prepare this year, plus all the drama we've had to deal with concerning this policy change.

Please do not take this as "we're not listening" and that we're not prepared to make any changes. I personally want to take some time as we move towards the elections in May to figure out some options that may help heal some of the divisions in this club and move forward in a positive way with both club members and forum members. Your input will be considered, and likely discussed at different levels in the club.

Thanks all for your passion to the hobby, your participation on the forum, and for your ideas to make OVAS a better club and forum.

Sincerely,
Andre

[Stussi613]

I'm running late for a meeting, so I'm going to be brief here.

There are some excellent suggestions in this thread, and we intend to review them and hopefully make some changes based on them.

The issue we have right now is two fold:

1.  Time.  We're trying to pull off the first two day event the club has hosted in years in less than a month. There are myriad issues to deal with, and confirm, and we have an obligation to ensure we don't bankrupt the club doing this. We're bringing in sponsors, speakers, out of town vendors...confirming the venue layout...the list goes on.  After tonight the exec will have spent 12 hours working behind the scenes on club issues and AquaMania and 4 hours on the monthly meeting (last night).

2.  Resources.  Quite a few execs are doing double duty right now. Errol posted the recent resignations from the exec in another thread. Thankfully our Secretary had a change of heart and returned, but we are still stretched.  Many of the questions/suggestions we need to look at from a website functionality standpoint need to be looked into by the webmistress, who is also the program director, and relatively new to the website software.

If people are expecting instant change I'm sorry to let them down. Our efforts are focused on AquaMania right now, and will be until April.  That being said I had a long chat with Jimbo last night and there are some things we'd like to set up a committee for (his suggestion for a resource section is the main one).  Some of the other ideas presented here need fleshing out, and I'm hoping we can get the people who presented them to come forward with plans on how to action them so the exec can just review them and decide (after consultation with the membership) on how to proceed.

Stuart