120G Planted Tank

[Shawn84]

Shawn isn't a rookie, he's probably got over 30 tanks running at home, and he set up most of the tanks at the Pet Expo last year where we didn't lose a single fish over the entire weekend.

Thanks for the kind words

[exv152]

Hey Shawn, I think your tank is great. I have to ask, where did you get the burmese (asian) rummynose tetras? Was it a local lfs?

[Shawn84]

Hey Shawn, I think your tank is great. I have to ask, where did you get the burmese (asian) rummynose tetras? Was it a local lfs?

I don't have them yet. Was gone a pick some up at he end of the month in Toronto. But they only have males right now and no female. Without female they don't color up as nice.

[angelcraze]

 

Shawn isn't a rookie, he's probably got over 30 tanks running at home, and he set up most of the tanks at the Pet Expo last year where we didn't lose a single fish over the entire weekend.

So you all are defending that adding 70 unquarantined fish at once to a tank that was filled up with water only a month and four days ago, a good idea?  Not to mention how these fish are a little more difficult to acclimate than say guppies, because they theoretically feed only on algae and are usually starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food.  

Rookie or expert, I don't get how introducing that many fish at once, or how someone's experience can have any influence on nature's ecosystem bioload outcome, is to be glorified.  For those who are new to fishkeeping reading this topic, this is simply not a good idea.  

The fact that Shawn84 set up most of the tanks at the the Pet Expo last year is commendable, but if a fish had expired in two days after being moved, this would make it a very weak specimen.  

I apologize for being direct, but I already sympathize with that fish as it is and personally would like to give each one a fighting chance for survival and the best possible environment given it's previously experienced trauma.  I don't understand how 70 otocinclus is a reasonable number for a clean-up crew in a newly cycled 120g, even half that amount, especially along with 6 angelfish, some platies, and other inhabitants.

[Stussi613]

So you all are defending that adding 70 unquarantined fish at once to a tank that was filled up with water only a month and four days ago, a good idea?  Not to mention how these fish are a little more difficult to acclimate than say guppies, because they theoretically feed only on algae and are usually starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food.  

Rookie or expert, I don't get how introducing that many fish at once, or how someone's experience can have any influence on nature's ecosystem bioload outcome, is to be glorified.  For those who are new to fishkeeping reading this topic, this is simply not a good idea.  

The fact that Shawn84 set up most of the tanks at the the Pet Expo last year is commendable, but if a fish had expired in two days after being moved, this would make it a very weak specimen.  

I apologize for being direct, but I already sympathize with that fish as it is and personally would like to give each one a fighting chance for survival and the best possible environment given it's previously experienced trauma.  I don't understand how 70 otocinclus is a reasonable number for a clean-up crew in a newly cycled 120g, even half that amount, especially along with 6 angelfish, some platies, and other inhabitants.

I can see your points, and I understand where you're coming from, but I was merely saying that Shawn didn't just decide to throw 70 Otto cats in this tank on a whim when he didn't know if it was ready for them.  He isn't a newbie

By, and large, people in this hobby tend to err on the side of caution because a dead fish is money wasted in the hobby. 

Talk to anyone that owns a store and they'll tell you fish trans-shipped from Asia stay in bags for three to four DAYS on their way to North America and they don't all die when they arrive and are put into regular tanks.  If the otto's were "starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food" then I'd think a 120g cycled tank with an abundance of the kind of food they eat would be like Elysium to them...

I'll tell you a dirty little secret my friend, I had these cool pigmy albino bristle nose Pleco's in my 120g planted tank that went into a 15g holding bin with my filter media for a month. I took them out of there and put them in my cichlid tank and them decided that every once in a while I'd catch one that was near the surface and put him in my 6g Fluval Edge with the Crystal Red Shrimp and Otto cats for a few days when the algae got out of control, then move him back to the big tank when he had cleaned up the real nuisance areas. You know what my acclimation period was?  Net from one tank, drop into the other, then net from that tank and put back. I just sold those fish after having them for a year and a half with no ill effects.

Fish are tougher than you think.  If they weren't every cichlid owner would be killing female fish when they net them, grab them and force their mouths open to make them spit out their babies, then plop them back in the tank they came out of.

All of us try our best to practice good husbandry. I've been keeping fish for decades and I always try to provide the best home possible for my fish...but sometimes you need to remember that the majority of the fish we get have never been in the wild area that has the perfect conditions that we try to replicate and they can handle a bit of a change and then acclimate to it.

[Shawn84]

I'm not offended at all by the comment. I'm glad there is a debate on the amount of fish I have in the tank. The tank has been up and running for almost 2 month now. With all the life stock I had, none had past away. Now i'm not recommending anyone who is new in the hobby to just go out and buy a tone of fish and just dump it in the tank. But if you really follow everything I did not add all fish at once it was over a period of time. My fish are all very hardy. They been either breed by me or been with me long enough to be used to our tap water. I do not recommend new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all. The oto I pick up are nice and healthy all have full tummy when I pick them up. On the bioload issues, these guy produce such little waste that its not even worth mention. On the whole big picture my filter can handle much more. I never put my feeding schedule so no one how much I am feeding so you don't know how much bioload is really going in the tank. All water parameter are in check. The angel. cherry barb, platty, and snail are breeding in the tank. So i can say that my tank is fully cycled. I can say i'm no expert but I do know what I'm doing.


Shawn

[angelcraze]

By, and large, people in this hobby tend to err on the side of caution because a dead fish is money wasted in the hobby.  

Is this what a dead fish is to you?  I don't think money at all when I see a dead fish, which is seldom these days, or due to factors that I cannot help, or did wrong.  I certainly feel bad about the wrong choices I made when I was new to fishkeeping and ended up with dead fish, or even one dead fish, but I consider that my ignorance even though I extensively research always now.  I never once thought of the money I lost, and don't know why this was even mentioned, since everyone knows Shawn84 got his otos for a buck apiece, at least the last 50.

Talk to anyone that owns a store and they'll tell you fish trans-shipped from Asia stay in bags for three to four DAYS on their way to North America and they don't all die when they arrive and are put into regular tanks.  If the otto's were "starving due to the algae ridden store aquariums they first end up cramped in after being shipped across the world in mass numbers with no food" then I'd think a 120g cycled tank with an abundance of the kind of food they eat would be like Elysium to them...

These fish were shipped from Asia in oxygenated bags, and were indeed in rough shape when they reached North America, not all dead, but some were, this is obvious by the condition they were in at the store, tails all grounded down from stress, either not active, or plagued with ich.  Yes, Shawn's tank is a paradise compared to the overstocked store tanks, but what's the point of putting 70 of those oto's in his tank, this is hardly necessary for algae control, and their chances for survival would be heightened if they put into other individual's algae infested, cycled, established tank in reasonable numbers.  How can that many be justified for his personal stock?

I'll tell you a dirty little secret my friend, I had these cool pigmy albino bristle nose Pleco's in my 120g planted tank that went into a 15g holding bin with my filter media for a month. I took them out of there and put them in my cichlid tank and them decided that every once in a while I'd catch one that was near the surface and put him in my 6g Fluval Edge with the Crystal Red Shrimp and Otto cats for a few days when the algae got out of control, then move him back to the big tank when he had cleaned up the real nuisance areas. You know what my acclimation period was?  Net from one tank, drop into the other, then net from that tank and put back. I just sold those fish after having them for a year and a half with no ill effects.

You are comparing plecos, moving from tank to tank at your house with similar water parameters and plenty of food to eat in each tank to 70 otos, moving from a store tank after being shipped for days in a bag to a tank fully cycled, but established only 2 months 120g.  I won't get into the method these fishcatchers use to net them.

Fish are tougher than you think.  If they weren't every cichlid owner would be killing female fish when they net them, grab them and force their mouths open to make them spit out their babies, then plop them back in the tank they came out of.

Again, you are comparing otos to cichlids.  Cichlids are made to be a tougher fish suited with their aggressive natures.

I've been keeping fish for decades and I always try to provide the best home possible for my fish...but sometimes you need to remember that the majority of the fish we get have never been in the wild area that has the perfect conditions that we try to replicate and they can handle a bit of a change and then acclimate to it.

I have been keeping fish for almost one decade, not long at all, and I have make a lot of mistakes, and had a lot, more than I ever thought to learn, and I genuinely feel guilty if my lack of knowledge (which isn't learnt overnight) caused even one fish to die.  You would think that everyone would try to provide the best conditions possible, and I am not saying that they were in perfect conditions in the wild, some are saved by the hobby, but you have a lot more space/water to make up for a less than perfect effect being introduced into their environment in the wild than a closed ecosystem.  I don't see how it's fair to force 70 fish to acclimate to a condition involving "a bit of change" when half of them would run a greater chance for survival in someone else's well planted, established tank.

I simply find 70 otos at once overkill at the expense of the oto's health, I hope those gorgeous angels and other fish don't suffer any ill effects either.

[exv152]

...then I'd think a 120g cycled tank with an abundance of the kind of food they eat would be like Elysium to them...

Isn't Elysium the place where heroes go after death? 

What I love about this hobby is there's half a dozen ways to do the same thing, no one is right or wrong, as long as the end result is the same.

[angelcraze]

Just a little update still waiting on the blinds so right now algae is an issues. I pick up some clean up crew to help with that.

12 Nerite Snail
12 Horn Nerite Snail
20 Otocat

Make that 70 oto cat.

Now i'm not recommending anyone who is new in the hobby to just go out and buy a tone of fish and just dump it in the tank. But if you really follow everything I did not add all fish at once it was over a period of time. My fish are all very hardy. They been either breed by me or been with me long enough to be used to our tap water. I do not recommend new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all. The oto I pick up are nice and healthy all have full tummy when I pick them up.

You "picked up" the mass majority of these otos, 50 of them around the 19th of August.  The first 20 were added two days earlier around the 17th.  We are now the 20th.  That's a lot of fish in a very short period of time, I don't care what you say.  Have you looked at all your otto's bellies that you picked up, honestly?  Did you quarantine them, honestly?  You do not recommend  "new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all."  But I feel this is exactly what you have done.

So i can say that my tank is fully cycled. I can say i'm no expert but I do know what I'm doing.

No one ever said your tank wasn't cycled, but there is a difference between fully cycled, and fully established.  I just am concerned about the amount of plants and driftwood the 70 otos have to hide in, your tank seems fairly open so far, on the left side and I know you plan to let it fill in, but I only see a little hairgrass and you mentioned some crypts.  I believe otos would do much better in a more densely planted tank, for 70 of them anyway.  How does it not look like many fish in there?  Where do they all go?

[Shawn84]

The forums is somewhat alive again

What I love about this hobby is there's half a dozen ways to do the same thing, no one is right or wrong, as long as the end result is the same.

Well said Eric.

You "picked up" the mass majority of these otos, 50 of them around the 19th of August.  The first 20 were added two days earlier around the 17th.  We are now the 20th.  That's a lot of fish in a very short period of time, I don't care what you say.  Have you looked at all your otto's bellies that you picked up, honestly?  Did you quarantine them, honestly?  You do not recommend  "new fish hobbyist to do this just adding straight fish store fish to the tank and if you know me I don't recommend you doing it at all."  But I feel this is exactly what you have done.

How is it that I am telling people to put the fish directly into the tank after buying it from the fish store? Can you tell me where along this build thread that I said that. Yes I pick it up from the store and added directly into my main tank. Yes i did check the belly of to otto cats before I buy. Also for your info the otto cat has been sitting in the store tank for almost 2 week now. How is it that I'm putting the fish in a tank that has an abundance of food hinder the survival of the fish? You think that 70 otto is too much for my tank? There is no real right answer to how many fish you can stock a tank. All depend on the fish. I can stock 100 otto in my 120 if given enough food.

No one ever said your tank wasn't cycled, but there is a difference between fully cycled, and fully established.  I just am concerned about the amount of plants and driftwood the 70 otos have to hide in, your tank seems fairly open so far, on the left side and I know you plan to let it fill in, but I only see a little hairgrass and you mentioned some crypts.  I believe otos would do much better in a more densely planted tank, for 70 of them anyway.  How does it not look like many fish in there?  Where do they all go?

By fully established do you mean by having it fill with all plant? Well the hobby had gone through many misconception. Otto actually like open area. A tank doesn't have to be fully planted to keep a group of otto cat. That's the misconception about this fish. One thing you need to know is that these fish don't live in area that is that densely with plant. Where they come from is slow moving river that is fill with dead organic matter and algae. Area where their in has no plant at all just rotting root tree and they suck on rock and very near the surface cause they can come up to the surface to breath. We in the hobby buy them for the ability to consume different algae that no other fish would. But here's another fact you must consider most people buy 1 or 2 otto cats. This is WRONG!!!!! they live in groups so just like any other community schooling fish you need at lease 5 or more. My plant stock is enough for now and I like what I have. I planted a bunch a Blyxa the other day. I have a lot of different type of crypts in the tank just haven't name them all yet. Will do that later. Yes i have stocking in the tank. But when consider the size of the tank to the size of the fish, it doesn't look like I have a lot at all. Now with the otto in the tank. It look more lively. They are all happy eating and tummy are nice and round. None are sick. Like I said I am moving half of the otto into my parents 75G I am setting up for them in the living room. I am moving the angels, cherry barb and platty  back home. I am also picking up 1200 cardinal for that tank. Let me ask you this if I were to put 1200 cardinal in my tank instead of the otto cat. Would you still make the same argument?

[Stussi613]

Isn't Elysium the place where heroes go after death? 

It's a reference to the Elysian Fileds, a place of ideal happiness. It does happen to be in Hades, and you do sort of have to be dead to get there, but what I was going for was the place of ideal happiness part...smart a$$

[Stussi613]

...

Once again, I'm not saying your points aren't valid, nor am I saying that I measure the value of my fish's lives in terms of their costs.

What I was saying is that we, in this hobby, tend to go overboard on being as pragmatic as possible to replicate a fishes perfect environment because the fish we keep come from far away and cost allot of money and they are living things that we love since we go to all these lengths to make the clear boxes we put them in as nice as possible.

I'm not going to argue against all the points you raised, nor am I going to say putting 70 ottos in a 120g is recommended for a person who is new to the hobby. I will say that I've seen with my own eyes that Shawn knows what he's doing and I've got enough confidence in his ability to judge the health of his fish before, and after he buys them, that I'm not going to question his choice because it goes against my idea of proper fish husbandry.  I know that he's got enough tanks at home that he could put 10 in each of them if he got into an emergency where he needed to get them out of the big tank. 

Also, I'm pretty sure the tank they are in now is better than the dirty tanks they were in before he got them.

[wrm130]

I am also picking up 1200 cardinal for that tank. Let me ask you this if I were to put 1200 cardinal in my tank instead of the otto cat. Would you still make the same argument?

This thread makes me sick.  Unsubscribed.

[Shawn84]

This thread makes me sick.  Unsubscribed.

It shouldn't make you sick. Why would it when hobbyist exchanging views on things. Have you seen a big group of cardinal of like hundred in a tank? I have and its spectacular. You can't judge something that you never seen before.

[charlie]

The only thing I will add to this debate is that the die off of Otto Cats post harvest , is significant with probably only a 40% live rate by the time it reaches the distributer .Hence I choose not to buy Otto`s within the first 2 weeks of arrival @ the LFS
As far as QT`ing  Ottos, I`m one of the  ones that have never QT Otto`s, so far I have been problem free.
Regards

[robt18]

I never quarantine fish. Watch them at the store. Like Errol said, if they're going to get sick/die within two weeks, they'll do it whether they're at your house or at the store. Watch for signs of illness while they're at the store, if they're clear, you should be good. Sometimes you can't avoid diseases like ich, which happen due to to the stress of moving more than anything else. It could be the result of taking them home, regardless of how long they were at the store/if they go into QT or main tank.

70 ottos is a good number in my opinion. The tank may be somewhat new, but I'm sure old media was used to add some bacteria to the system. They have a minimal bioload and as long as pH remains stable and they have lots to eat, they're typically a hardy fish.

As far as people's talk about shipping, fish are overnight shipped from essentially all distributors. They are in bags for one day, but packed so that they could last for two, should they miss a flight/there be complications, etc. Some distributors don't use oxygenated bags. I've shipped my fish overnight in regular bags, nothing special, and everything turned out fine. I don't remember how this was relevant to the thread, but those are the facts.

With Oto cats, I find it extremely important to know where the fish are coming from. For several years now, the otos coming out of Peru have been the healthiest and hardiest I've seen. The Asian fish farm versions tend to arrive malnourished and unhealthy. You can tell at first glance when you have a quality fish.

Personally I think 1200 cardinals may be a bit steep on this tank, but it could tank 600-700 no problem. In the wild, schooling and shoaling fish aren't found in groups of 5. Real schooling fish should be kept in bigger tanks in groups of at least a dozen, but really should have probably 50 to make them feel comfortable. Even with that being said, their behaviour is much more natural when they are in groups in the hundreds. Fascinating to watch and much better for the fish. They only thing to watch for when doing this is the large increase in bioload when the group is added.

[charlie]

http://www.otocinclus.com/feeding.html
This would help greatly with new tanks.

[wrm130]

I think my three biggest issues are:

- the sheer volume of fish Shawn insists on adding DIRECTLY all at once.
-Lack of plant density
-tank is cycled but still new, not established

Debate and pat him on the back all you want, I disagree with what he's doing.

[exv152]

To be fair to shawn, the tank may or may not be fully cycled, but the media in the canisters is. From speaking with him personally he mentioned he was going to be using established media/filters. And I don't think he said anywhere that he insists on adding them all at once. I'm not sure I would agree with 1200 cardinals, but maybe a fraction of that amount is doable over a period of time. Cardinals do have a minimal bioload, mature females produce more because of their larger bodies. But interesting thread.

[Shawn84]

I think my three biggest issues are:

- the sheer volume of fish Shawn insists on adding DIRECTLY all at once.
-Lack of plant density
-tank is cycled but still new, not established

Debate and pat him on the back all you want, I disagree with what he's doing.

Yes i am adding 1200 fish in but who said im adding it all i all at once? All i simply said is im adding in 1200 cardinal. I know that adding it all in at once will boost the bioload. Plant density play a part in help maintain water level. We are all so focuse on it has to be fuly planted this and that. Have you really look into where the fish come from? There natural habitat. Fish in our aquarium are very pamper compare to the one in nature.

This is a simple conversation. You learn through experience and i too did make a lot of mistake in the past. But with those mistake i can say that i am experience enough to know what i am doing and wouldn't kill my fish. They are my pride and joy.

On the whole tank cycle and establish comment. Your tank is never at a point of becoming fully establish. Due to the many factor like your weekly water change, plant decomposing, new plant being added, so many more factor can be name. So the whole notion of establish tank to me is just another term for being cycled. People tend to go over broad with that and dwell on that notion. Can you explain to me what is your definition of an establish tank and a cycle tank? How long does the tank have to be run to make it an establish tank?

70 ottos is a good number in my opinion. The tank may be somewhat new, but I'm sure old media was used to add some bacteria to the system. They have a minimal bioload and as long as pH remains stable and they have lots to eat, they're typically a hardy fish.

Personally I think 1200 cardinals may be a bit steep on this tank, but it could tank 600-700 no problem. In the wild, schooling and shoaling fish aren't found in groups of 5. Real schooling fish should be kept in bigger tanks in groups of at least a dozen, but really should have probably 50 to make them feel comfortable. Even with that being said, their behaviour is much more natural when they are in groups in the hundreds. Fascinating to watch and much better for the fish. They only thing to watch for when doing this is the large increase in bioload when the group is added.

Couldn't have explain things better. People don't realize the amount of food that is available for them to eat in my tank. I for one, never bought otto cat from store before due to the many issues that they have. I usually pick them up if people are getting rid of them from a hobbyist tank. But these guy were healthy and active. They are active in my tank. They been in there for 4 days nows and no sign of sick or stress. Happily swimming in group and eating.