120G Planted Tank

[robt18]

Do people know what cycled/established really mean?

Water quality is a dynamic measure. If you take the used filters out of a 1000 gallon tank and run them on a new 10 gallon tank and don't put fish in for 6 weeks, all of the bacteria will be dead and not be beneficial at all.

In the same thought, if you use established media from a tank with a bioload of say 100 medium-sized fish and put it onto a brand new tank, the tank could probably support say 80 medium sized fish (give 20% for die off, beneficial bacteria in water column, gravel, etc.). Especially in canisters, most of the bacteria lives in your filter's bio media, so transferring it is pretty much like an instant tank start up.

If your tank is "cycled" and stable, the second you add a new fish the balance is offset an you're likely to have ammonia appear in the tank because the level of bacteria existing in the tank can't handle a greater bioload. As the ammonia appears, more bacteria grows and therefore can support the larger bioload. Adding new fish is the art of knowing how many to add as to not offset the balance of the tank too drastically, such that too much ammonia forms too quickly before new bacteria can grow to dissipate it. When you add too many, that's when NH4 levels shoot up too high and you can experience fish loss.

The easiest way to counter this is to cut back feedings when introducing new fish and slowly ramp them back up. Also, if you're sending/shipping fish to someone, do them a favour and don't feed the fish for a couple of days prior to shipping. The fish will release ammonia into the bag which in turn gets into their blood stream which is released into the the new tank quickly upon release. It definitely doesn't help the process of acclimation and rebalancing the tank.

[angelcraze]

Ok, where do I start?  You asked if I would present the same argument had you introduced 1200 cardinals in a short period to your 120g instead of the otos.  Obviously it would not be the same argument, because they are different fish and many cardinals are now being bred in captivity.  But, I would be concerned with adding that much at once for sure, which has already been established.  To exv152, he never said that he added them all at once, and he didn't, he did it within a couple of days, we just know that, it's not hard to figure out when there were 'shouts' on oto sales.

I would just never add any fish directly from the store into my prize tank, or with other fish to potentially pass on an illness.  This is just my practice, you may argue that I am too cautious, prudent, but I feel this is safe.  I just disagree with quarantining fish while at the store, if that's what you are saying.  That's just my opinion then, but I just would never take a chance in making my other fish sick, when it is preventable.  To me, this is not doing everything one can to provide a safe and stable environment for the fish.

You asked what the difference is between a cycled and established tank.  robt18 explained this,  A 'cycled' tank, we all know has passed the stages of the nitrifying process.  The tank has enough beneficial bacteria to support the bioload.  If more fish are added, the beneficial bacteria multiply.  'Established' refers more to a balance in the tank, between fish, bacteria and plants.  Stability.  By adding that many fish at once, a tank will never be balanced.   Also, I was just wanting to point out, that in a new tank, the substrate needs some time to settle in, and a lot of the beneficial bacteria stores here too, not just in the filter, but you know this.  This can definitely be explained better, I just don't feel like it right now.

No, Shawn84, LOL, I would never just buy one or two ottos when they prefer groups of five or six at least, but seventy?  I was just saying I thought that amount was overboard, and didn't see the point.  You never mentioned how many you were giving to your parents, or how big their tank was before.

And about their wild habitat, you are saying that they come from a slow moving river that is filled with dead organic matter and algae.  Where there are no plants, just rotting tree roots and algae covered rocks, which they feed on.  I wasn't saying pack your tank with plants, if I like lots of plants, and you like beach areas, scape-wise, to each their own, but you said it yourself, rotting tree roots, rocks with algae, your tank will be hardly rotting, or have much decomposition yet, I see no rocks.....You said that you purchased the first batch of ottos as a cleanup crew to take care of an algae bloom until you get blinds, I thought twenty was plenty for that purpose, then two days later, you said "make that 70 oto cat".  That just blew my mind to use as a cleanup crew, and just felt it was overkill, again, I don't see the point for algae control.  I didn't know if you were boasting, or just got impulsive.  

It was how some members were condoning, glorying this, that upset me.  You never said or encouraged new fishkeepers to buy a (imo) ridiculous amount of fish for their tank, but you have to remember that there are new hobbyists reading these threads for ideas and info, and might get steered in a disastrous direction, especially when other members are encouraging this.

To Stussi613, I don't understand how if there arises a problem in his 120g, due to disease introduced by wild caught ottos without enough QT time, how dispersing them between the 30+ tanks he has at home is a solution.  I wasn't talking about simply, exclusively water quality and biolad.   I realise they are a small fish.  (although I still feel seventy added in small period of time is too much, and maybe he can brag that he can do this, but I wanted to make clear that this is not commendable common fishkeeping practice)

In the end, I would like to say, good for you and all the members who have had good luck in not QT'ning fish, especially wild caught ones, Shawn84, it's good you are happy with your tank, I just don't agree with your method, and think it's detrimental for newbies to follow this.  I really do hope, for the fishes' sake, that you do not run into problems.
 

[wrm130]

Yes i am adding 1200 fish in but who said im adding it all i all at once?

that i am experience enough to know what i am doing and wouldn't kill my fish. They are my pride and joy.

On the whole tank cycle and establish comment. Your tank is never at a point of becoming fully establish. Due to the many factor like your weekly water change, plant decomposing, new plant being added, so many more factor can be name.

YOU.  You yourself insinuated that you would be adding 1200 cardinals at once asking if my opinion would differ had you added them instead of 70 ottos.  Both quantities are ridiculous.

Experienced aquarists can judge the health of fish but most would not add 70 of any kindof fish at once.

As for the tank being established, you've defined it well.  Plants breaking down, waste building up that kindof thing.  THAT is an established tank, which you do NOT have.  Your tank is new and you're still pulling out and putting in new plants.

This is my issue.

[exv152]

YOU.  You yourself insinuated that you would be adding 1200 cardinals at once asking if my opinion would differ had you added them instead of 70 ottos.  Both quantities are ridiculous.

Experienced aquarists can judge the health of fish but most would not add 70 of any kindof fish at once.

As for the tank being established, you've defined it well.  Plants breaking down, waste building up that kindof thing.  THAT is an established tank, which you do NOT have.  Your tank is new and you're still pulling out and putting in new plants.

This is my issue.

How about the fact that his filters can turn over the volume of that tank several times per hour, and the fact that the media is well seeded with nitrifying bacteria? That should count for something, should it not?

[wrm130]

Yes, it does.  For sure!  In the initial phases absolutely.  And at that he did a good job.  Couple angelfish and other randoms...

But water turn over and bacterial breeding rates are two totally different things which I'm sure you'll agree.

If the tank was 'well cycled' and stable before, it sure hit a big bump when he dumped in 50 ottos.

[angelcraze]

How about the fact that his filters can turn over the volume of that tank several times per hour, and the fact that the media is well seeded with nitrifying bacteria? That should count for something, should it not?

So you get a big, bad filter, and you can add as many fish as you want in a very short period?

The nitrifying bacteria still needs a few hours at least to accommodate such a prompt bioload, roughly 120-140 inches of fish.  I don't necessarily follow the rules of gallon per inch of fish or when it comes to lighting myself, but we are talking about "a short period" of maybe two days.  

Btw, I love blyxia!!!  Good choice.

[charlie]

For the sake of this debate, these are the points that jump out at me.
three of the concerns that seem to be the main issue are adding 70 otto cats to the tank that is not " established",
not enough food present in a new tank ?( subject to correction), & lack of QT.
Here is my question, if he added the 70 otto`s to a QT tank which in most cases are no different from what he has attempted to do here ( a new tank with cycled media from other established filters) what is the advantage of the QT tank food wise & established tank debate over the 120 Shawn has used ?
Keep in mind I`m not saying anyone is right or wrong, just playing devils advocate.

[angelcraze]

Hey Charlie, not trying to fight, I have seen from your other posts that you are very successful.  But what about the pretty platinum angels, platies and so one, that inhabited the tank before he added the ottos? What danger is he putting them in?  Personally, my hospital tank is fish free when I add my QT fish from the store.  Oh, and I would never use my tank on display as a quarantine tank.

[wrm130]

The tank is new, there is not enough food present.  Even if he feeds them, otto's graze continually throughout the day.

He did not quarantine any of his new fish showing a lack of good husbandry for his existing stock.

The introduction of 50 fish at once is ridiculous-ish.  Species specific debatably.  Had he quarantined 50 neons THEN added them, I may have felt differently.  Otto's are not the same.  Once again going back to the food and established tank issue.

The only way I'd be ok with this was if he'd quarantined, say 12-18, added them and waited.

It just seems so impulsive, as if they were more of a commodity.

[wrm130]

Oh, and Shawn is a very nice guy.  Friendly and easy to talk to.  In no way am I attempting to insult him:)

I just disagree with his methods.

[charlie]

Hey Charlie, not trying to fight, I have seen from your other posts that you are very successful.  But what about the pretty platinum angels, platies and so one, that inhabited the tank before he added the ottos? What danger is he putting them in?  Personally, my hospital tank is fish free when I add my QT fish from the store.  Oh, and I would never use my tank on display as a quarantine tank.

If you noticed I did not question the advantage of the QT Tank in regards to the so called "Good husbandry"
Other than that the "establised tank" point does not hold water in this case, as both the QT& the 120 are on par

Again the lack of sustainable food point for both tanks are on par.
Not promoting no qt but for me I make the decesion whether to QT or not.
Not p
Regards

[angelcraze]

If you noticed I did not question the advantage of the QT Tank in regards to the so called "Good husbandry"
Other than that the "establised tank" point does not hold water in this case, as both the QT& the 120 are on par

Again the lack of sustainable food point for both tanks are on par.
Not promoting no qt but for me I make the decesion whether to QT or not.
Not p
Regards

Ok, maybe I am missing your point, idk, yes, the "QT" and 120g are on par, "cycle" speaking, but did you answer about potentially the ill effects suffered by the other inhabitants?  In Shawn84's case, the angels, the platies, cherry barbs?

[charlie]

Ok, maybe I am missing your point, idk, yes, the "QT" and 120g are on par, "cycle" speaking, but did you answer about potentially the ill effects suffered by the other inhabitants?  In Shawn84's case, the angels, the platies, cherry barbs?

If you noticed I did not question the advantage of the QT Tank in regards to the so called "Good husbandry"

That`s what I meant , I agree there is a risk where contamination of other livestock by not doing so, other that that nothing else offered in this debate whether he used  a QT tank , e: the not enough food & established tank, Again I`m not advocating not QT` igf live stock, but as we all know their are times when it`s not possible.
Regards

[angelcraze]

Not possible?  Or how about, just not buying a (imo) ridiculous amount of fish to QT at once, and putting other fish at risk?  This is his personal stock.  It could be done in smaller intervals.

This debate is insane, I am running into the same problem in my quarantine tank with my ottos.  I have four in a 5.5 g.  the tank has been going for years, but there is very little brown algae, or any algae, but I think the ottos prefer diatoms.  I have been adding rocks from another brown algae infested tank, and any leaves I trim from the tanks go into the 5.5g as a treat until they are wiped clean.  I will have 5 ottos in each tank, but it will be done slowly, and carefully QT'd.  Whatever, this is another thread, what I am saying is that even for four ottos, I am concerned about giving them enough to eat, yes, in a QT tank, they don't touch the zucchini or algae wafers, which is why I am concerned about him wanting to keep 35 indefinitely in his 120g and 35 in his parent's 75g.  If he purchased them for the reason he said, to take care of the algae problem, and because they do better in groups, then again, I feel he went overboard and is impulsive, without being conscientious of his current tank inhabitants.

[Shawn84]

Heres the thing I ask you how you know my tank does not have enough food for the otto to eat? So far. Provided very little info in that. So jumping the guns and saying my tank is new and does not have enough food is wrong. I see thatmy tank has plenty of food for them and of course i will be supplimenting other food for them. But in no mean that they do t have enough food to eat. In all case you should QT your fish. Im sure i made it clear that i agree with that. But by no mean that the otto would have better chance of survival if it was in QT compare to the main tank.

The tank is new, there is not enough food present.  Even if he feeds them, otto's graze continually throughout the day.

He did not quarantine any of his new fish showing a lack of good husbandry for his existing stock
The introduction of 50 fish at once is ridiculous-ish.  Species specific debatably.  Had he quarantined 50 neons THEN added them, I may have felt differently.  Otto's are not the same.  Once again going back to the food and established tank issue.

The only way I'd be ok with this was if he'd quarantined, say 12-18, added them and waited.

It just seems so impulsive, as if they were more of a commodity.

They are not a commodity.they are my pride and joy. So one cant add 50 fish to a tank at any point? Adding 12-18 each time stress fish out more. As you already know, each time you add a group of fish where the you QT them or not you may still run into issues. Even from home tank to tank. Why? Well cause the existing tank mate have to learn to welcome the new one. Due to this factor the fish are recommended to b place in the tank during light out.

All in all everyone has there point and view on how to do things. There's no right or wrong answer just different technique of achieving the same result.  

[fischkopp]

Interesting read, killed quite a bit of efficiency, hope everyone had a good summer!

For what it's worth (not a lot), here are my thoughts to this topic:

The fish that Shawn is adding should make a nice addition to the setup; numbers are chosen to make an impacts. The tank should house them easily, provided it's setup and taken care of properly. Meaning, the water quality is top notch, read: largish water changes on a regular basis.

The bioload of these fish is little, even in numbers, and you would be amazed how quickly the bacteria in a tank catches up with it (it's a matter of hours) provided they are pre-existent and there is enough capacity/surface area for them to settle. You know that you went too far if a bacteria film builds up on the glass (though in Shawns case the oto cats would like that ...). Cycling in a way is over hyped, as there are many factors that play into this, as mentioned in this discussion, and it's a continuous process that adapts itself to the (ever changing) environment.  Anyway, my point is tank size determines more what size of fish you can put in it, not so much the numbers, as long as you stay on top of water quality. Mind you, in the wild, fish do actually live together quite densely.

Is food gonna be an issue? I doubt that. Yes, oto cats graze all day, and there will be a point that they won't find much food this way. That why we all feed our fish, and most of us tend to over feed. I believe starvation is a very rare case of death for fish kept in aquariums.

Quarantine is a good thing for sure. There are certain fish (discus!) that I would never mix without that step, but tetras and oto cats are not really prone of having issues (other than ick maybe, which isn't a big deal).

The only thing that I would be concerned of is feeding the cardinals to the angels. But we talked about that before ...

There are a couple of other things I could add here, but that's better talked over with a beer or two. So to conclude: Shawn isn't doing anything I wouldn't do or haven't done myself. Kudos! It's gonna be a nice tank!

Happy fish keeping!



Disclaimer: Understock your tanks though if you have no time for maintenance!

[angelcraze]

Wild caught fish, internal parasites.  Sometimes this isn't noticed at fist glance if lets say the fish contracted it during shipping for example.  I personally think there is a greater risk of disease with wild-caught fish, also difficulty to 'train' them to eat prepared foods.

I habitually do a weekly 30-50% w/c in all my tanks ranging from 5.5g to 120g.  I personally tend to understock, because I enjoy watching the behaviour of each fish and interaction with plants (my preference).  About changing water, I don't see changing too much to be an issue, since the greater quantity of bacteria is stored in the filter media and substrate, hardscape.  I feed my fish once a day, or every two, and very little, so I agree, "starvation is a very rare case of death for fish kept in aquariums."  

I just worry about my ottos, they seem to be so picky, and could not imagine 70 of 'em.  My problem with Shawn's method was more putting the other fish's health at risk.  Maybe he could have removed the angels, platies and cherry barbs prior to QT'ning the otos?  

[Stussi613]

Angelcraze, you feel quarantining all incoming fish is a must, totally respect you on that. Not everyone has a QT tank, nor do they feel the need to QT every fish. It seems you have as hard a time accepting that as you have accepting the possibility that it might actually not be the worst thing in the world to add 70 otto's to a 120g...at least according to 3 of the most knowledgable fish keepers on OVAS (Rob T, Charlie and Fishkopp). 

When I had my discus tank the only fish I QT'd before adding(other than the discus which were added in one batch with a filter that had been running on my 60g to seed it) were the 100 Cardinals and 40 Rummynose I got from Montreal that looked sketchy when I brought them home. It's a good thing I did too because they had ich...but I was only able to QT them because I hadn't sold the 60 yet.

I'm building out a 25g FOWLR QT tank for my impending 120g saltwater build because nothing will be going in my tank without a dip, a bath or 2 weeks in QT...but I never had a dedicated QT tank when I had a freshwater tank as I didn't feel I needed one.

[Shawn84]

Wild caught fish, internal parasites.  Sometimes this isn't noticed at fist glance if lets say the fish contracted it during shipping for example.  I personally think there is a greater risk of disease with wild-caught fish, also difficulty to 'train' them to eat prepared foods.

I habitually do a weekly 30-50% w/c in all my tanks ranging from 5.5g to 120g.  I personally tend to understock, because I enjoy watching the behaviour of each fish and interaction with plants (my preference).  About changing water, I don't see changing too much to be an issue, since the greater quantity of bacteria is stored in the filter media and substrate, hardscape.  I feed my fish once a day, or every two, and very little, so I agree, "starvation is a very rare case of death for fish kept in aquariums." 

I just worry about my ottos, they seem to be so picky, and could not imagine 70 of 'em.  My problem with Shawn's method was more putting the other fish's health at risk.  Maybe he could have removed the angels, platies and cherry barbs prior to QT'ning the otos?   

Yes WC fish can have internal parasite which does not often show up and hell some have it and never show up until something in your tank trigger it. I have plenty of WC fish and none had die in my hand. No one is disagreeing the fact that you SHOULD QT newly fish if your still new at the hobby. But the fact that I used my judgement and put them in my main tank is no big issues. You say yours having a hard time eating? Well i let you know that my 70 are eating algae wafer. They kill 2 over the span of 2hrs so to say they are picking I personally think they are not. Like all fish you have to give them time to adjust to the new process food. Just because they don't eat it a couple of time don't mean they wouldn't eat it at all. I test the water twice a day and let me tell you that the parameter are the same no spike what so ever.

Here's the thing I keep specialty shrimp and they are by far more finicky then the otto's. Some don't even touch process food only algae and biofilm in the tank. The fish in your tank may behave differently then the one in mind that's just the natural of things. No 2 tank are identical so same goes the fish.

[charlie]

Guys , I think we have all made our point regarding the addition of the 70 otto cats to Shawn`s tank, let`s move on & revert to the build of Shawn`s 120 gln tank.
Regards