Substrates

[wolfiewill]

I've had discussion lately with several people about substrates, something near and dear to my plant-green heart. I think that there are many ways to cut costs on planted tanks but quality lighting and substrates are so important to the success of a planted tank that with regard to these items, corners should not be cut. As for substrates, if a mistake is made, it is the one item that can't be replaced without a complete tank overhaul. And, I do believe that you get what you pay for. I have two links below, written by the same guy on the UKAPS forum about whom I'm always shooting my mouth off, which details very well the differences between substrates. The first link is mentioned in the second link, but the good bit in the second link is the second post by ceg4048 a little bit further down in the page. Cheers to all.

http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/flora-max-v-eco-complete.13801/#post-143731
http://www.ukaps.org/forum/threads/eco-complete-or-ada-soil.32572/#post-346090

[exv152]

Thanks for posting. Interesting threads. I've had good results with seachem fluorite, ADA Amazonia and stratum. Fluval just came out with its latest version of soil based substrates called plant and shrimp stratum not sure if it will replace the regular stratum but apparently it's made of actual volcanic Japanese soil. Noticed it's already on the shelves of some local LFS's.

[daworldisblack]

Thanks for the links - makes perfect sense. Have never tried eco-ccomplete myself as I went the flourite route when I first got into planted tanks and Flourite has worked well for me. I stumbled about a product thats supposedly similar to Eco-Complete but much better called Activ-Flora. Seems to be good for plant growth as well as aesthetics: http://ircalc.usps.com/?country=10054 . For a discussion on it, check this out: http://goo.gl/aPjlxH

[angelcraze]

Dirt.

[fischkopp]

Dirt.

Haha. Dirt sure is best value. But it isn't necessarily easy to work with (read: messy, organic decomposing). It really depends what you are after.

[wrm130]

I don't find dirt messy at all, if care is taken moving and removing plants:)

I also find dirt EASIER to work with as it takes all the guesswork out of dosing (other than the odd shot of excel)

What's wrong with organic decomposing?  It supplies C02 and maintains a large BB colony.

One awful thing about dirt...y'know that awful smell when you plunge a clogged sink?  It stinks EXACTLY like that when you tear it down.

Oh, and bubbles from the substrate can be a pain in the butt too.

All the said, it's my #1 choice

[fischkopp]

What's wrong with organic decomposing?  ...y'know that awful smell when you plunge a clogged sink?  It stinks EXACTLY like that when you tear it down. Oh, and bubbles from the substrate can be a pain in the butt too.

You answered it yourself. There is a risk of hydrogen sulphate build-up in the substrate over time. This is not only unhealthy but can also wipe out your tank. Be aware of that.

Otherwise, just as I said, you can get quite amazing results with dirt. But I wouldn't use it if you plan to move things around a lot.

[wrm130]

I agree that if plants are always or often being moved dirt is not the best choice.

There is a risk of hydrogen sulphate building up over time but this is unlikely if things are done properly and not overdone. Ie: thickness, plant load, plant species, lighting etc.

http://www.aquarium-pond-answers.com/2008/11/hydrogen-sulfides.html

[exv152]

Dirt presents a lot of other challenges that folks find frustrating. Not just hydrogen Sulfide issues, but issues like cloudiness, algae, and floating debris/organics. Pre-baked granule soils (like ADA), and a high tech setup, present a better option because you get the best of both worlds; you get the nutrient rich soil substrate, and fertilizers in the water column (+ co2), which IME leaves less margin for error.

[angelcraze]

Dirt presents a lot of other challenges that folks find frustrating. Not just hydrogen Sulfide issues, but issues like cloudiness, algae, and floating debris/organics. Pre-baked granule soils (like ADA), and a high tech setup, present a better option because you get the best of both worlds; you get the nutrient rich soil substrate, and fertilizers in the water column (+ co2), which IME leaves less margin for error.

I personally didn't find problems with cloudiness using dirt, in fact the opposite because of the high BB colony it maintains.  As for floating particles, which could attribute to cloudiness, idk, I use filter floss and never noticed it.  It is harder to maintain, in respects to anaerobic bacteria, or hydrogen sulfide, and employing MTS to aerate the soil is necessary, or I just use a wooden skewer stick to poke holes in the soil to release it.  If you're moving plants often, it's not a good choice, agreed, and expensive substrates are a better pick, but there you go-expensive.  As for algae, not sure how dirt would contribute to that, since the organics decomposing would provide co2 (as mentioned already)??   I am interested in your point of view...    

[charlie]

This topic is an aged old one  debated several times by proponents of each type of approach to substrate.
My take is that the key thing ( which most hobbyist miss ) is to fully understand the basics of how each type of substrate benefits the growth of plants, armed with that know how, it`s easy to identify what you need to focus on to get the best results.
I have used all types of substrates except dirt, simply because it does not fit with my comfort level of keeping plants, but have seen & applaud the tanks I have seen with success with dirt, needless to say I have seen some disasters with all types of substrates dirt included.
My conclusion is they all have their strengths & grows plants as good as any other-it`s all about understanding the substrate & if it fits with your comfort level.
Regards

[angelcraze]

exv152?  Algae and dirt?

[exv152]

Well, when it comes to dirt tanks I have yet to see a tank that truly impresses me, with the exception of one or two I've seen. The majority I've seen though tend to have algae issues (like bba, thread etc), and the fact that debris will cloud up the water for days every time you replant deep root feeders, really puts me off the idea. Those are really minor issues, the hydrogen sulfide and anaerobic bacteria should be of a bigger concern. That said, I am a huge advocate of the commercially available mineralized soils like amazonia, netlea etc. That plus water column ferts and co2, as mentioned earlier, IME is key to the best possible outcome for success in the planted tank hobby.

[angelcraze]

Thanks for sharing your point of view.  I will leave it after this, but your statement is not comparing 'apples to apples.'  You said yourself, a good substrate plus water column ferts and co2, is the key.  Your post is not explaining the rest of that picture in regard to the dirted tanks you have seen.  And how many were there?   And how are the one or two that impressed you set up as compared to the ones that didn't impress you?  Dosing schedule, co2?  I don't feel you answered why you said using dirt as a substrate causes algae.  I already answered how to deal with hydrogen sulfide.  Agreed, one would have to be conscious of this and maintain it.

Whatever, using commercial substrates is better for you, I guess, but for folks with large tanks that just don't want to spend that kind of money on substrates, I feel, ime, using organic soil as a substrate to be an amazing alternative to the specialty substrates sold at LFS, at 15% of the cost, if that.  WIth all due respect, you haven't seen my tanks, exv152, and you are crapping all over dirt with no real justification.

[exv152]

I agree, dirt either way you look at it, is the way to go.

[wolfiewill]

WIth all due respect, you haven't seen my tanks, exv152, and you are crapping all over dirt with no real justification.

I for one would love to try a dirt only substrate. Can I see your tanks?

[charlie]

I for one would love to try a dirt only substrate. Can I see your tanks?

I for one will probably never use dirt, but always good to see what others are doing , please share your tanks.
Regards

[Dxpert]

I tried dirt once, what a mess. I probably did it wrong but with such an important choice I would be willing to pay a little bit. I'll be using ADA for my next tank.

[angelcraze]

I deleted my original post, it makes no sense now.

[angelcraze]

For those who are reading this thread for the first time and have no idea what is going on, the posts have been moved to a new thread, the posts that shared pics of tanks using a dirted substrate as requested by the OP.