Ideas for new tank - 40 g XH - Update

[adam_ottawa]

I've been lurking around the forum for awhile now, learning lots from what you have to say about aquariums.

I'm a relative noob to the aquarium thing:  I've had a 20 g L set up for about 1.5 years now and everything has gone fairly well with it.

I've been spending the better part of the last year and a half reading and surfinng the resources out there and have finally decided to take the plunge for a medium-sized tank.  I'm about to set up a 40 g XH.  The dimensions are 36 X 12 X 21 (H).

I'm going to aquascape with some rocks/caves (perhaps using petrified wood) as well as a fair amount of plants.

The pH of my water seems to be around 7.4-7.6.

After much consideration, I've pretty well opted to move my 3-inch long Red-Tailed Shark out of the 20 g tank.  I'm also thinking of adding 3 Clown Loaches and 6 Tiger Barbs.

What do you think of the compatibility of these fish?

I'm a bit hesitant of adding Clown Loaches because of the tank size.  Everywhere I've read says they need a tank that's about 48 inches long.  Do you see this tank as being too small for these guys?  I'm intending on making lots of hiding spaces.  I am aware that if I do decide to go with the Clown Loaches that I may have to someday give them up.

Are there any substitutes that you can recommend in place of the loaches?  As an Alternate to the Clown Loach, I was considering, perhaps, Blue Rams.

I was originally starting to research cichlids most resources indicate that most normally require 55 g tanks as a minimum.  I'm thinking of leaving that for a next tank (gawd forbid)   Going out on a whim, which cichlids may go well in a tank this size?  Would my shark be compatible with any cichlids?

I'm just going to be loading up the gravel, filter and heater this weekend.  Plants may come in next week.  I'm thinking that I won't be adding any fish for a couple weeks, so I have awhile yet to make any decisions.  I'll probably cycle the tank with tetras and move them into the 20 g later on anyway.

Oh yeah, and this is going to be my show tank in my living room.

Sorry for all the questions.  I'm at the critical decision-making point.  Any thoughts or comments would be appreciated.

[mseguin]

Depends what you mean by cichlids. If you mean Africans, that might be a bit small. But you could easily have a pair of kribs, or Anomalochromis thomasi, in there.

[apistome]

Cichlids are a huge,diverse family of fish. Some of the dwarf variety are able to be kept in a 10 gallon, some, like the Africans mseguin mentioned need to be with a large group and need at least a 55gal. (unless you know your africans). Many cichlids however would do just fine in a 30.
The fish you keep should all require the same water parameters, so if you are looking at the cichlid family, keep  in mind that they range in need from extremely acidic to extremly alkline.
...at 7.5 you could get away with Kribensis, an very attractive dwarf African cichlid...i have never kept loaches so I do not know their compatability....

[darkdep]

If you're looking at African Cichlids, it would be best to dedicate a tank to them and not include any of the other things on your list.  Most Africans are fairly aggressive, plus they really are a world in and of their own.  There are a lot of smaller Africans you could keep in a tank of that size.

If you mean South / Central American cichlids however, you've got a lot of choices.  Rams, Apistos, etc are all great fish and don't grow too big.

If you're looking for variety but still want some Africans, I would recommend Tanganyikan Shelldwellers of some kind.  You can keep a lot of them in a 36" tank, plus you can put other top/middle dwelling fish in with them.  You will need to maintain hard, alkaline water for them tho.

[Muad'Dib]

Hey Adam_ottawa

I have the same 40G  H tank. I've set it up as an African Cichlid Tank. I chose Cichlids from Lake Malawi (Personal Preference)
I currently have
5 Afra's http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1733
5 Lithos http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=2292
And on Friday will be picking up 3 Yellow Labs http://www.cichlid-forum.com/profiles/species.php?id=1669
The links may not be my specific species. They are all Juveniles so they have not developed their full colour patterns yet.

I realize 13 fish may be too much for this tank in the long run, and I'll thin it it out a bit later (3 of each species may be the final count)

For filtration I am running an XP3. This is a fantastic filter. It houses the biological filtration (I added the bio media), mechanical filtration, and chemical (if needed). It's flow rate is perfect for this tank. I point the spraybar upwards slightly to get some surface action going for oxygen exchange.
The tank is setup in 2 distinic zones.
One is rocky, with caves, nooks and crannys.
The other is planted. (I've got 7 different species of plant)
Lighting is provided by two 25 watt tubes. (this is not enough for the plants, so it will change to two maybe three 30 watt tubes)

Anyway, this may be way more information than you need, but I just wanted to let you know the 40Gal H tank is working very well for me with African Cichlids.
DarkDep gave me some great advice when I first started looking at Africans a couple of months ago, if you stick to species that do not grow too large, and are only mildly agressive you will do fine.

The cichlid forum is a great place to research them.

Cheers
Dean

[darkdep]

dstaff's fish are good for a smaller African tank, although he'll have to thin out the Lithobates a bit more than the others if he gets many males in his mix, as the males can grow to a good size. 

Common Mbuna types like Afras, Zebras, Yellow Labs, etc. make good Africans for a 36" tank.  You'll not be able to keep as many as in a 48" (just because of their final size) but you can keep juvies for quite a while and then sell off some when they grow up.

[adam_ottawa]

Thanks for all the ideas!  I'm glad that there is hope for some smallish cichlids in my tank afterall. 

I guess I'll do some more research before setting up the tank!

Out of the ones mentioned, what would be good cichlids to cycle a tank with?  Or could I get away with something like some hardy tetras and remove them before stocking with the long-term inhabitants?

[Muad'Dib]

Out of the ones mentioned, what would be good cichlids to cycle a tank with?  Or could I get away with something like some hardy tetras and remove them before stocking with the long-term inhabitants?

Actually I did a fishless cycle. I added Ammonia to the tank to maintain a reading of 3.0 on my test kit.  (Can't remenber if it ppm or not) as the ammonia level dropped I redosed with 20 to 30 ml to keep the level up.
The ammonia dropped to zero and the nitrite spiked at about 2.0.
Eventually I could add 20ml Ammonia each night and it would read 0 by morning.
It took another week for the nitrite cycle to finish.
I did a 50% water change once the nitrite cycle finished
I kept adding 20ml of ammonia per dayfor 3 days to feed the bacteria which was 2 days before adding my fish.
I was then able to stock the tank with 10 juvenile fish with no issues.

Hope this helps
Dean

[adam_ottawa]

So after much reading & web site consultation, I'm looking at setting up one of the following tanks (these tanks were actually recommended for a 30 g long, which has the same footprint as a 40 XH).

Option A:

1.  1 trio Yellow Labs

2.  1 trio Cynotitapia Afra (small ones like climate/dwarf/clown/jalo reef)

OR 1 trio Haplachromis (not sure what kind yet)

3.  1 trio Capadichromis Azureus (a little $$ I think)

OR 1 trio Auloncara (some kind of Peacock)

4.  If enough room, some small/med schooling fish like Danios, Rasboras, Rainbows (this was just a suggestion from one web site).

5.  2 dwarf Plecos (like Bristlenose)

Option B:

1.  2 trios  Dwarf Pseudotropheus (like P. Saulosi, P. Demasoni, P. Porchi)

2.  1 trio Cynotilapia Afra

3.  1 trio Melanochromis Dialepis (Dwarf)

4.  1 trio Haplachromis (not sure what kind yet)

5.  1 or 2 Dwarf Plecos

What do you think of these setups with what I got?

I just bought an eheim Classic 2213 filter.  I'm not sure if that would be large enough for stocking like this.  I can still return it and exchange it for a larger size, if need be.

Assuming that these fish are compatible, am I going to have a hard time finding them?  At BA Innes, I only noticed a couple/few of these fish.

[Muad'Dib]

I think you've chosen some very nice fish.

Personally I'd stay away from adding the Danino's or other dither fish. But that's a person preference not because of any compatibility issues.
The BN pleco will work well, I'm hoping to add one to my tank soon.

The only thing I saw that might be an issue from my "untrained" eye would be the Copadichromis azureus. The males can get to be over 7" long. I tried to limit the maximum size of my fish to around 5".
Someone like DarkDep or Pegasus could shed more light on any other issues, or tell me I'm way off base  .

As for sourceing your fish, Look on OVAS first!  I found all of mine on the OVAS Classified Forum. 
(infact from Dark Dep and Pegasus) There are may other members who breed Africans so I'm sure you can find what your looking from form one of them.

Best of luck, I think you will end up with a beautiful tank when all is said and done.

[darkdep]

Glad to see you're doing your research!  Some thoughts:

For Option A:  I wouldn't get any Haps.  Haps need more swimming space than Mbuna, as they are more "open water" fish. For them the length of the tank matters much more than the height.  The Azureus is a beautiful fish, but alas, as dstaff mentioned, it will grow far too large for a tank of that size.  It's an open water fish and would be very cramped in that tank.  I would also not recommend the schooling fish; you'll eventually lose them all to the aggression of the others.  The BN plecos are a good idea tho, they will get along fine with the Africans.

For Option B:  See my notes on the Haps, and also you might want to think twice specifically about Demasoni.  They work better in a larger group.  Otherwise, looks good.

Look for your fish on here; you haven't selected anything that's very rare, you should be able to find all of them easily.  I'm personally breeding the Afras and have a batch of juvies available;  Ask on the Classifieds for the others and they will turn up

[adam_ottawa]

Thanks for your help dstaff and DarkDep.

I have further refined my tank list to:

1.  1 trio Yellow Labs

2.  1 trio Cynotitapia Afra (small ones like climate/dwarf/clown/jalo reef)

3.  1 trio  Dwarf Pseudotropheus (like P. Saulosi, P. Demasoni, P. Porchi)

4.  1 or 2 BN Plecos

When it comes time to stock, not sure in what order, I may add in the Yellow Labs first.

[darkdep]

I would suggest Labs and Plecos first.  The Afra and Pseudotropheus should be added at a young age to minimize aggression.

I'll also point out that when these fish reach their full size, you may need to remove some...may be quite crowded

[adam_ottawa]

Thanks DarkDep.

I have considered that I may need to thin out the stock eventually.  At least I can have fun raising them.  Who knows, maybe I'll have a bigger tank in my place when that time comes around 

[adam_ottawa]

Hey everybody,

After two months working on the set up and reading, reading and more reading, I've almost got my tank ready for stocking.

I ordered some Texas Holey Rock off ebay and mounted the largest piece on slate to provide stability.  The tank is almost cycled and I'll be looking to stock it within the next couple weeks.

I really like Malawi, and realizing that this is a small tank (footprint 36 x 12.5), I'm leaning towards either:

- 3-5 Yellow Labs with 3-5 Saulosi or
- 3-5 Yellow Labs with approx 12 Demasoni or
- Saulosi-only tank.  Not sure how many would be appropriate at this point.

Any ideas/comments on the above combinations for this size of tank?

I'm getting excited and can't wait to finally see some colour added to the tank!

[blizzack1]

Hey everybody,

After two months working on the set up and reading, reading and more reading, I've almost got my tank ready for stocking.

I ordered some Texas Holey Rock off ebay and mounted the largest piece on slate to provide stability.  The tank is almost cycled and I'll be looking to stock it within the next couple weeks.

I really like Malawi, and realizing that this is a small tank (footprint 36 x 12.5), I'm leaning towards either:

- 3-5 Yellow Labs with 3-5 Saulosi or
- 3-5 Yellow Labs with approx 12 Demasoni or
- Saulosi-only tank.  Not sure how many would be appropriate at this point.

Any ideas/comments on the above combinations for this size of tank?

I'm getting excited and can't wait to finally see some colour added to the tank!

I had basically the same your proposing in option #2

I had 5 yellow labs and 12 demasoni.  If I were you, I'd go with the five labs, as I found that the darkness of the demasoni's colours kind of overwhelemed the tank (though I did have a black background), and that the labs had a lot more character.

I think they were great fish though and would recommend them ahead of a Saulosi tank (though I've never had one).

[adam_ottawa]

I had 5 yellow labs and 12 demasoni.  If I were you, I'd go with the five labs, as I found that the darkness of the demasoni's colours kind of overwhelemed the tank (though I did have a black background), and that the labs had a lot more character.

I think they were great fish though and would recommend them ahead of a Saulosi tank (though I've never had one).

Cool...I actually have a black background too.  Along with white texas holey rock, my vision is to have a basic colouring scheme so as to accentuate the inhabitants

Of course, I'm already scheming to have a bigger, more elaborate tank in the bedroom (the only room left in the place that could house another tank).

[Demasonian]

I'll second blizzack1's endorsement of the 5 labs, 12 demasoni mix. Be prepared to take some casualties among the demasoni. I try to maintain a population of at least a dozen in my 75, but every few months a shuffling in the dominance order either kills a male or forces me to move one out if I catch it in time. Be sure to provide lots of rock cover.

Personal preference, but I would avoid the yellow lab/saulosi mix unless you want an overwhelming mix of yellow in the tank. Not sure about the risk of hybridization on that mix too.

For a saulosi only tank, you could use this stunning tank as a guide (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/  - The August 2006 tank of the month). I think he has a total of 16 fish in there, 4 males and 12 females.

Good luck, and post some pics when you're done!

[adam_ottawa]

I'll second blizzack1's endorsement of the 5 labs, 12 demasoni mix. Be prepared to take some casualties among the demasoni. I try to maintain a population of at least a dozen in my 75, but every few months a shuffling in the dominance order either kills a male or forces me to move one out if I catch it in time. Be sure to provide lots of rock cover.

Personal preference, but I would avoid the yellow lab/saulosi mix unless you want an overwhelming mix of yellow in the tank. Not sure about the risk of hybridization on that mix too.

For a saulosi only tank, you could use this stunning tank as a guide (http://www.cichlid-forum.com/tanks/  - The August 2006 tank of the month). I think he has a total of 16 fish in there, 4 males and 12 females.

Good luck, and post some pics when you're done!

Yeah I was leaning towards that mix as well.  I'm not sure if I'm prepared for all that agressiveness yet, but I guess that's part of the challenge with Malawis.

If I do go this way (Labs/Demasoni mix), should I introduce the Labs first or both species at once?

How about Saulosi only - would it be safe to introduce that many all at once?

[Demasonian]

Best case scenario in both cases is to introduce all fish at once. Your ability to do so really depends on how much ammonia you used to cycle your tank and therefore, the size of your bacterial colonies.

My 75 gallon was zeroing out 5 ml of ammonia every 12 hours. This was enough to safely plant 26 juvenile mbuna all at the same time (no ammonia or nitrite readings after intro of fish).

In terms of trying to mitigate territorial aggression by introducing fish in staggered order, don't worry about it. Labs are not a very territorial fish in my experience and the Demasoni will own all of your rock work no matter when they are introduced. This shouldn't be a problem as Demasoni are fairly tolerant of other species and at most, some of your labs will get chased if they swim too close to the territory of a dominant male Demasoni (especially if he's in the mood for love).

One minor note of caution with this mix is that I have found yellow labs to be voracious fry hunters. So if you want to raise up any of your Demasoni, I would move the holding mother to another tank to spit. However, if you're looking for a way to keep the Demasoni population down, your labs will be happy to help.