deleted posting of my ad

[markw]

I have just been advised that my last posting with my list of available fry for sale has been deleted for violation of OVAS rules. I was told that I was posting as a commercial breeder, and the site is for private sellers only. Those who know me, understand that I have an intense love of the hobby and happen to have lots of success breeding unique Tanganyikan cichlids. I don't make money at it...far from it. I sell fry to help other members appreciate the hobby and see the great variety of fish available. I list my fry every few months as they become available and have always respected the guidelines published. Too bad over-zeolous trigger happy individuals jump to conclusions as to intent.

[groupie02]

read your PM.

[RossW]

How is it determined if you are a commercial seller or not?

I know many fresh and salt guys who have had a fairly consistent, not necesaarily constant, supply of "items" but are not deemed commercial.

[Brine]

How is it determined if you are a commercial seller or not?

I wondered the same thing. Can anyone point me at the "rules"? Just curious.

[RoxyDog]

Too bad over-zeolous trigger happy individuals jump to conclusions as to intent.

There are people here to try and "police" the forum as best as they are able for the good of everyone.  Sometimes ads get moved until we can decide what to do next.  I don't know exactly what happened to yours, and while I understand you might be angry, maybe this was not entirely appropriate either?

I don't believe you to be commercial seller, rather a successful fishkeeper and valuable hobbiest.  The problem we run into is when successful fishkeepers such as yourself sell bigger quantities of items rather than just a tank here or there, etc.  We want to support our local successes without being detrimental to our sponsors, who have paid money to be a part of our site.  That is where the problem lies.  The balance.  There are many people here as RossW said that have a regular supply of items for sale.  (While they are not "commercial" in nature, most of them don't even have an OVAS club membership and they should.  They're not even supporting our club for $20.  Sorry, but this irks me.)  So anyway, yes sometimes ads will get messed with a bit until we get it straight.  You're not a commercial seller, and you ad has been restored. 

Note: there is no "rule" to determine a commercial seller.  If we know it's what someone does for profit, or as a main business, we're going to look into it. 

Edit: thanks RossW, I knew that was there somewhere.

[RossW]

I found this:

- The general Classified Ads forum is now for Private, non-commercial ads ONLY.  Posts of a commercial nature will be moved or deleted.
- Non-commercial breeders who sell on OVAS regularly will be required to hold an OVAS Club membership.  These types of ads are still considered private sales and are permitted in the Classified Ads forum.

http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=12222.0

As RoxyDog mentioned, it is a balanance.  There are others I would consider commercial sellers before yourself.

[bitterman]

So what does it cost to sponcer OVAS if this is considered a business? Cheapest possible.... The way this is going, I'm going to be in the same boat once my Frontosa/Gibberosa start producing regularly.

There have been people on here in the past that sold ALOT more and alot more regularly and we not considered sponcers.

Maybe you should get a small business license and start writing off stuff, hydro to run the tanks etc.

Bruce

[markw]

First of all, I certainly believe in the merits of the club and its value to hobbyists. I have placed several ads over the past several years, basically in response to some members who have asked to be kept updated on the fish I have available. I do not compete with any of the sites sponsors, primarily as I only deal with rare and uniques species, that are not kept in stock by LFS's. I do not breed them to sustain a commercial viability. I breed them, as it is a byproduct of a successful fishkeeping hobby. Those who know me and have either bought, traded or been given fish by me know that I keep hundreds of fish and have lots of quality fry available. I beieve I offer species that many members didn't even know existed. I enjoy meeting many of the members who take the time to come out and visit, and I believe I am able to help many with their hobby questions. I have had lots of positive feedback from thosewho have seen my opertion, and I certainly have never heard conflict issues. I certainly never intended to violate any guidleines as I respect the integrity of the forum. I read all the guidlelines and have seen many similar ads to mine. I simply put all the fish available in one ad as opposed to a bunch of space consuming ads.
I certainly understand the requirement to oversee the many posts placed on the forum, including ads, but deleting posts without some research is often more damaging than intended.
Thanks
Mark

[groupie02]

Folks,

I believe that the exec has already visited this topic of breeders posting in the classifieds but we will be revisiting it at our next meeting in November.  We will let everyone know what to expect in the future.

Cheers
Pierre

[bitterman]

So based on http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=12222.0  as mentioned above....

# The general Classified Ads forum is now for Private, non-commercial ads ONLY.  Posts of a commercial nature will be moved or deleted.
# Non-commercial breeders who sell on OVAS regularly will be required to hold an OVAS Club membership.  These types of ads are still considered private sales and are permitted in the Classified Ads forum.

I have no problem with the above at all, So in short Mark if you purchase an Ovas Membership, your ok as an Hobiest/Breeder. It's only $20 for the year and goes to support OVAS. Using this site does use bandwidth etc.. and does cost.

Bruce

[charlie]

So based on http://ovas.ca/index.php?topic=12222.0  as mentioned above....

# The general Classified Ads forum is now for Private, non-commercial ads ONLY.  Posts of a commercial nature will be moved or deleted.
# Non-commercial breeders who sell on OVAS regularly will be required to hold an OVAS Club membership.  These types of ads are still considered private sales and are permitted in the Classified Ads forum.

I have no problem with the above at all, So in short Mark if you purchase an Ovas Membership, your ok as an Hobiest/Breeder. It's only $20 for the year and goes to support OVAS. Using this site does use bandwidth etc.. and does cost.

Bruce

Bruce Markw  always had a membership since his involvement with this club, it was only as of Oct.1 2009 that Mark is non  paying member of the club ( which is about 2 weeks ago).Perhaps it`s just a matter of getting around to it before he renew.

[bitterman]

I was actually thinking I though he was a member and and then looked  ........ then I posted thinking he would say I am a member LOL.... I do recall a thread about people not getting there forum account updated... Thought maybe he was one of them

Don't mind me.... I'm in an unedited mode today as work is being a PITA. Sorry if I offened anyone. And I'm still curious if an Ovas sponcership is required and you are deamed a breeder, whats the cost?

I am still confused why his ad was deleted... unless its because he is no longer an OVAS member and he is deamed a breeder now. I'm afraid the same might occur so me at some point in the furture. Marc does have some very wonderfull and rare tangs!

Thanks,
   Bruce

[markw]

I've always been a member of OVAS since I moved here 3 years ago. I have held memberships in similar clubs throughout Canada when I lived in those cities. I believe in the concept of supporting the local clubs. I realize now that my membership had expired 2 weeks ago, through an oversite of mine. I wasn't able to attend the last meeting, and planned on renewing it at the next meeting. Seems like a pretty harsh way to deal with members who miss a few weeks of membership fees!

[groupie02]

folks, just relax a bit.

markw, you can renew online by visiting http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=83.

[markw]

folks, just relax a bit.

markw, you can renew online by visiting http://ovas.ca/index.php?page=83.

I've already straightened it out with Dan.

[groupie02]

I am still confused why his ad was deleted... unless its because he is no longer an OVAS member and he is deamed a breeder now. I'm afraid the same might occur so me at some point in the furture. Marc does have some very wonderfull and rare tangs!

Someone reported his post as a commercial post. I looked at it (too quickly) and agreed, removed the post. I did not know Mark and without knowing who he was, his post did look commercial.

My bad. The post has since been restored and this discussion has raised some interesting issues. We (the exec) will get everything clarified and let everyone know where we stand on this. 

I try to remember this item on the first page " to encourage breeding and displaying of aquatic life"...  We need to work on that part a bit more on this web site.

Cheers

[dan2x38]

And folks some hobbyist's interest is witnessing the breeding habits of fish. There are few more intertesting breeding habits of fish as Africans. As a result these (non-commercial) hobbyist will have a by-product of their interests - fry...

It is also true for those of us who like to grow aquatic plants you end up with a lot of excess. Just as some of the fish are rare so are some of the plants.

OVAS' constitution is to:

a) to further the study of all forms of aquatic life

b) to promote interest, exchange ideas, and distribute information concerning the hobby

c) to encourage breeding and displaying of aquatic life

d) to work toward the conservation of endangered species.

As mentioned though we are not here to offer/promote a free website for vendors.

[Al]

Maybe the person who reported this as a commercial post has too much time on their hands and a suspicious mind. Just because someone has 7 or 8 different fry for sale doesn't mean they are a commercial breeder. As a matter of fact I didn't see anything that stated "available in large volume". For all anyone knows, there are 5-10 fry available in any one group - a mouthful?? with maybe the exception being the comps which lay down some serious clutches. Glad to see the post has been restored and some calmer minds and reason have prevailed. We have a great classified section available to us as members of OVAS, I hope we can keep it that way.

[mseguin]

Ok, its all good now.
To be fair, when I (and obviously the moderation requestor) first saw the post, it looked like a commercial stocklist to me. Then I saw that markw was the poster, and knowing him (and having bought fish from him), I knew that wasn't the case. The moderator, not having that knowledge, reacted in a way to protect our paying sponsors, and in doing so, essentially placed the ad on hold. Both parties have realized the error of what happened, and we've learned a bit more about the forum rules. All in all, no harm done, if you ask me.
We do our best to create a great community environment for our members, and that has many facets. One of those facets is the numerous sponsors we have on this site, and as part of our commitment to them we need to make sure they are not the only ones following the rules. We are not trying to prevent breeders/fraggers/aquatic gardeners from reaping the benefits of their hard work, we just want to ensure that those benefitting from our community help us out too.