Idea's and suggestions to problem

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

I ran into a rather big problem where I was originally going to purchase a marine tank from someone here on ovas, But after a medical cost that needs to be covered right away came up (need a brace for a broken rib that healed wrong that can't be operated on and I am seeing a chronic pain doctor for, that is aggravating an area with another injury resulting in internal bleeding) I called the seller and explained what was going on and that I would not be able to purchase the tank, At the time He was okay with it and we were arranging when I could pick my deposit back up that I had left to reserve the tank, okay good so far.

But then He would not respond to any of our calls and emails, and I started to worry because I need to pay in advanced for the brace because it has to be casted and molded to my side fitted etc etc.... I already have a hard time working due to my side, being 17 and both my parents deceased so I have to pay for everything that is not covered (which is very expensive) plus trying to put myself back into school and everything else, I was already fairly aware He was avoiding me so I asked my friend to be interested in the tank and arrange to bring me to meet him to talk with him.

But when I started talking to him and asked for my deposit back which He agreed to, He said that I "screwed him over" and that I was not getting the deposit back because he had to move the tank, and after that he stormed off.

So I'm now short 200$, and with no 'product' or 'merchandise' from this seller, he basically took my money and left, I'm rather upset as you can imagine and now I have to borrow money from my friends who don't really have it.

Has anyone dealt with anything like this before? If so was there anything you were able to do to get back what was yours?  or are there any suggestions as to what I should do?

We already touched base with one of our friends whom is a lawyer, and he's going to be getting back to us very soon but, I would rather not have to wait a long time for the money back.

Needless to say I'm more then a little discouraged from the hobby right now, Being a minor still and having an 'adult' basically rob me does not sit to well with me, I think it's really sad that this happened, and It's not like I had any choice in the matter, anyone's health has to come before something like this.

I just feel incredibly hurt and distressed that someone would do this to me when I have done nothing wrong at all, I'm considering leaving the hobby over this, I know not everyone is a bad person but I just can't risk it.

[Brent Shaver]

If you got a receipt for the deposit, I would suggest you call the police, they can handle it.

[NjOyRiD]

or go get the whole tank we will sell it for you and then get your money back

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

If you got a receipt for the deposit, I would suggest you call the police, they can handle it.

It was a Verbal agreement, which both his 'roommate' and my 'roommate' were witness too, I don't know if the police will do anything even if I had one, although I do have a video which I recorded of myself asking for the deposit back where he tells me I am not getting it back.

Does that technically count to the fact that he admits and acknowledges there was a transaction and he is withholding it? I'm going to be forwarding the clip off to the lawyer obviously, but if I am able to get the police involved right away and get this over with faster then I am.

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

or go get the whole tank we will sell it for you and then get your money back

It's a cute idea but taking it would be theft, unless you mean by court case, and I'm not really down with stealing from people, plus the fact He has stolen from me and my legal guardian stole the whole estate left to me by my parents.

I just don't get why some 'adults' are so crooked that they need to basically rob a girl, I don't get it aside from greed, but even then...

At least rob someone your own size and age : /

[cdylnicki]

Take it to the police.  The worst they can say is to contact a lawyer.  Else, do you have any adults you can take with you to this persons house?  Try to see if he will give you back the money face-to-face?  

Smart for having at least part of the convo on record.  

Legally as a 17 year old, you cannot enter into any type of contract, therefore the seller has no right to keep the money.  Do you have any emails that have the sellers original request, or any other type of contact you would have had with him?  

I think NjOyRiD meant to purchase the tank as originally intended & then sell it.

[Darth]

this not a contract though an agreement was made a deposit left, and unfortunately you could not pick up the tank, in this case you would lose the deposit, unless agreed otherwise ie. If I can't pick it up by such and such a time you lose the deposit, by this person holding it for you and then you backing out potentially lost him a sale to someone else, now I am not unsympathetic to your cause, and yes it sucks to be in this situation, and the party here is greedy and you may feel taken advantage of. But we need to take in consideration how long after the date of pickup did you notify him, like how long was he holding it for? Did you tell him the day you were going to pick up you couldn't do it? Or before you were supposed to get it? How long did he agree to hold it for you? Again I feel your pain and i know it sucks, but I personally don't feel you have a case, you agreed to leave a deposit for something and then you fell through on the payment, it sucks but I don't feel you are going to win this battle. It is not a battle of morals, because again the other party would lose then,

[OVAS-Webmaster]

Some information for those reading this post...

OVAS will not under any circumstances intervene or mediate any dispute between sellers and purchasers.  Similar to an ad in the newspaper, kijiji or usedottawa, we are merely offering a service.  It is up to both the seller and purchaser to make sure they feel comfortable before entering into any agreement.

We will not provide any information during a dispute with regards to people's names, email addresses or any other information that we may have in our possession.  This information was provided to us in confidence and will remain as such.

This confidence however DOES NOT apply if we are asked to provide information by the proper authorities.



This thread has the potential to get a bit out of hand, however as long as no names are used in the discussion it will remain on the forum.

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

Take it to the police.  The worst they can say is to contact a lawyer.  Else, do you have any adults you can take with you to this persons house?  Try to see if he will give you back the money face-to-face?  

Smart for having at least part of the convo on record.  

Legally as a 17 year old, you cannot enter into any type of contract, therefore the seller has no right to keep the money.  Do you have any emails that have the sellers original request, or any other type of contact you would have had with him?  

I think NjOyRiD meant to purchase the tank as originally intended & then sell it.

He just moved, bought a condo or something so I don't have his new address(I do have his old one), we met him at my friends car(in the general area he lives in), I have two emails his full name phone number and I dug up the company he works for or owns.

I gave the money to my roommate to hand to him, because I knew as a minor I could not 'legally' enter a contract so he was doing it on my behalf and as my witness (the reason I trusted it to him is because he study's law as a pass time and basically asks his friend any questions or concerns about doing it on my behalf, he's a really nice guy and his word because of his job and pass time practices holds up in court almost as well as his friend) I already brought one of my friends who is an adult with me to meet him today when he refused to give me my money back, So if I need I have two witnesses already.

I also sent him a message after what happened telling him the offer is open to just pay me back and I won't bring it to court but he is just mocking me like when I told him that I could when we were face to face but prefer just having my money back and I'm sure he would too, since he has to pay the court and damages plus myself at that point, he was being rather rude and poising the 'I dare you, you won't win' boast I really don't understand how someone about 25 years of age can be so damn immature.

Also, There is a paper trail, two phones have record of calls going out to his personal cell and coming in from his personal cell, plus all the PM's I have from him so he basically can't deny I had contact with him (that and I have the recording)

It's just unbelievable how his behavior is, as this was not bad enough we had to re-schedule twice when to pick the tank up before I found out about the brace because "I'm not home" but he needed the tank gone asap.....and we told him exactly when we can get it(or are able to pick it up before we agreed on purchasing the tank) due to my roommate's working hours and both times he was not around and I had  three others lost time twice trying to arrange it aside from the two of us (and gas as we had to borrow a van that came almost from blackburn hamlet)

It's been a nightmare with this person, and I'm lucky One of my friends helped to cover the gas for the van because it basically almost cost me half of what the deposit is, so really I'm the one out money but I understood things come up and didn't say anything about it.

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

this not a contract though an agreement was made a deposit left, and unfortunately you could not pick up the tank, in this case you would lose the deposit, unless agreed otherwise ie. If I can't pick it up by such and such a time you lose the deposit, by this person holding it for you and then you backing out potentially lost him a sale to someone else, now I am not unsympathetic to your cause, and yes it sucks to be in this situation, and the party here is greedy and you may feel taken advantage of. But we need to take in consideration how long after the date of pickup did you notify him, like how long was he holding it for? Did you tell him the day you were going to pick up you couldn't do it? Or before you were supposed to get it? How long did he agree to hold it for you? Again I feel your pain and i know it sucks, but I personally don't feel you have a case, you agreed to leave a deposit for something and then you fell through on the payment, it sucks but I don't feel you are going to win this battle. It is not a battle of morals, because again the other party would lose then,

about 10 hours after the last failed attempt to pick it up because he was busy and could not make it (we were ready both times and he had to bow out), We told him I had to back out due to the medical issues, and he agreed to give me back my deposit, but when I approached him in person he sang a different song.

*EDIT* also Under the 'Buyer protection act', I have 15 days to return the product and receive all my money back including deposits I have made, and unless the 15 days are up (in some cases 10) he is legally by law not allowed to keep my money for any reason. (this is why this legislation is in place in case things like this happen, and I explained this too him and all he did was mock me) this applies to all verbal and written contracts, registered business  or personal, and at the time of purchase it was not declared by him that I would forfeit this thus making any claims about the deposit by him moot, (along with the fact he agreed to give it back)

[Stussi613]

about 10 hours after the last failed attempt to pick it up because he was busy and could not make it (we were ready both times and he had to bow out), We told him I had to back out due to the medical issues, and he agreed to give me back my deposit, but when I approached him in person he sang a different song.

Do you have anything in writing, pm or email, where he agreed to give you the money back?  Or do you have it recorded?  I'm not a lawyer, but if the seller agrees to refund a deposit after hearing the circumstances and then reneges on it you may have a small claims case.

[Stussi613]

Also, while I can understand that the seller had every right to keep the deposit, assuming it was understood that it was non-refundable, it's bad form to agree to do it and then back out and say "sue me". 

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

Do you have anything in writing, pm or email, where he agreed to give you the money back?  Or do you have it recorded?  I'm not a lawyer, but if the seller agrees to refund a deposit after hearing the circumstances and then reneges on it you may have a small claims case.

It was a phone call and it was not recorded because at the time we seemed to be dealing with a respectable person.

Three people including myself were privy to the conversation where he agreed to give the money back however, which does help.

[Darth]

also Under the 'Buyer protection act', does this apply to used goods as well? if I buy something in a flea market and bring it back odds are they are not gonna take it, all sales final, and all this sounds great about your witnesses but it will come down to he said she said your people say one thing his people say another

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

also Under the 'Buyer protection act', does this apply to used goods as well? if I buy something in a flea market and bring it back odds are they are not gonna take it, all sales final, and all this sounds great about your witnesses but it will come down to he said she said your people say one thing his people say another

Under personal, any good or services used or new apply to it. thankfully.

*EDIT* basically some of it is livestock, and with dogs your allowed to bring them back within a set amount of time, unless stated 'all sales final'
Which he did not state nor did I pay for the tank in full, or receive said tank, And he also never said 'Upon backing out user forfeit's deposit' and even is he did, it's still void by the buyer protection act. that's why it's the 'buyer protection act'

[NanoSF]

There was a lot of reading to do to get caught up with this post. It is late and I am tired so I may have missed this part but I think what Njoy was suggesting was can't you just pay for the rest of the tank and then sell it so you don't lose the deposit. The only way this person can rightfully keep your deposit is if you are unwilling to buy it. If you go ahead and buy it then he would have to sell it to you or give the deposit back. Now there seems to be logistic problems with finding this guy, but that aside at least this would make your case for getting either the tank or the deposit legitimate. Actually, maybe Njoy was suggesting less legitimate options now that I think about it 

The other problem I am having with this is the response from OVAS. I'm not sure I agree that this is just like kijiji or some other classifieds. First these are paying members that use the classifieds. I know this is changing but it was this way in this particular situation. Even when this does change there will be suggested fees for transactions. That makes this more like Ebay were there is some protection. Now I know there is no protection stated, but I am just disagreeing with the fact that there is no support through OVAS. At least some pressure or understanding would be nice from a community board such as this. Couple that with the fact that this is a community of people with common interest I find it disappointing that a statement was made to ensure no support would be offered by OVAS. Support wasn't even asked for here, so it just seems insulting to have it stated there will be no help with this situation.

[FocusFin]

Not that I'm trying to defend this individual (I know who it is and I'm not surprised) but it's generally understood that a deposit is non-refundable, otherwise why would we bother with deposits.

By making the deposit you are saying, "I intend to buy this item and you in return agree to hold the item until delivery and the balance of the payment is made". By backing out of the agreement you may cost the individual the opportunity to sell the item to someone else and in turn cause them a loss. The deposit acts as compensation for that loss - provided the amount of the deposit is reasonable relative to the cost of the item. In other words, a 75% non-refundable deposit is not reasonable and would probably not stand up in court, so if you paid a $200.00 deposit on a $300.00 tank you could go to court and argue that the amount of the deposit was excessive and you might win $150.00.

Your statement that "he never said all sales final" or "upon backing out user forfeit's deposit" cuts both ways because you did not arrange for a formal agreement. You the buyer, have an obligation to set out your conditions of sale when you hand over money to someone.

Look at it from the other side, if the seller accepts your deposit and then reneges in order to sell the item to someone else, you not only have a right to your deposit back, you also have legal grounds to compensation for the potential loss of not receiving the item. Again, it goes both ways.

99 out of 100 people on this site would refund your money but Darth is right, without anything in writing you cannot prove that the deposit was considered refundable and unfortunately on the surface this just "looks" like a case of buyer's remorse.

[FocusFin]

The other problem I am having with this is the response from OVAS. I'm not sure I agree that this is just like kijiji or some other classifieds. First these are paying members that use the classifieds. I know this is changing but it was this way in this particular situation. Even when this does change there will be suggested fees for transactions. That makes this more like Ebay were there is some protection. Now I know there is no protection stated, but I am just disagreeing with the fact that there is no support through OVAS. At least some pressure or understanding would be nice from a community board such as this. Couple that with the fact that this is a community of people with common interest I find it disappointing that a statement was made to ensure no support would be offered by OVAS. Support wasn't even asked for here, so it just seems insulting to have it stated there will be no help with this situation.

I think that OVAS is just restating their position when it comes to disputes between buyer and seller which is that they do not have the capacity to intervene. Although, as I stated above I think this person is getting shafted, how does anyone really know what happens during a transaction. What if someone offered the seller an extra $200.00 to back out on the deal with the OP and now that offer is gone. The seller is out the sale and the extra $200.00 he could have made. Is he right to expect some compensation. How does OVAS know who is in the right. Both parties may feel their actions were correct and in some cases both parties may be right but that's not for anyone else to decide.

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

Not that I'm trying to defend this individual (I know who it is and I'm not surprised) but it's generally understood that a deposit is non-refundable, otherwise why would we bother with deposits.

By making the deposit you are saying, "I intend to buy this item and you in return agree to hold the item until delivery and the balance of the payment is made". By backing out of the agreement you may cost the individual the opportunity to sell the item to someone else and in turn cause them a loss. The deposit acts as compensation for that loss - provided the amount of the deposit is reasonable relative to the cost of the item. In other words, a 75% non-refundable deposit is not reasonable and would probably not stand up in court, so if you paid a $200.00 deposit on a $300.00 tank you could go to court and argue that the amount of the deposit was excessive and you might win $150.00.

Your statement that "he never said all sales final" or "upon backing out user forfeit's deposit" cuts both ways because you did not arrange for a formal agreement. You the buyer, have an obligation to set out your conditions of sale when you hand over money to someone.

Look at it from the other side, if the seller accepts your deposit and then reneges in order to sell the item to someone else, you not only have a right to your deposit back, you also have legal grounds to compensation for the potential loss of not receiving the item. Again, it goes both ways.

99 out of 100 people on this site would refund your money but Darth is right, without anything in writing you cannot prove that the deposit was considered refundable and unfortunately on the surface this just "looks" like a case of buyer's remorse.

The consumer protection act states a deposit over 50.00$ entitles me to a 10 day cool down period in which I can change my mind and receive a full refund including deposit, Regardless of any terms of the Agreement.

[Tsukiyomi-sakura]

Requirements for direct agreements

42.  Every direct agreement shall be in writing, shall be delivered to the consumer and shall be made in accordance with the prescribed requirements. 2002, c. 30, Sched. A, s. 42.

Cancellation: cooling-off period

43.  (1)  A consumer may, without any reason, cancel a direct agreement at any time from the date of entering into the agreement until 10 days after receiving the written copy of the agreement. 2002, c. 30, Sched. A, s. 43 (1).

Cancellation: failure to meet requirements

(2)  In addition to the right under subsection (1), a consumer may cancel a direct agreement within one year after the date of entering into the agreement if the consumer does not receive a copy of the agreement that meets the requirements under section 42. 2002, c. 30, Sched. A, s. 43 (2).

http://www.e-laws.gov.on.ca/html/statutes/english/elaws_statutes_02c30_e.htm

So until I receive my written agreement which was supposed to be given to me during the day he blew off to pick the tank up(which he has made no effort was so ever to deliver or notify me that he has such ready the agreement was supposed to be written up by Tuesday of last week) , he's SOL, and it is not the buyers job to bug the seller about such written agreement, Nor can the buyer make an agreement to write such a receipt and would be considered void under the law, the person selling the goods is responsible for the written agreement  which he has failed to make and deliver to myself or my roommate.

Also while some of the deal went down in Quebec, The law is the same.

"1978, c. 9, s. 211."

http://www.canlii.org/en/qc/laws/stat/rsq-c-p-40.1/latest/rsq-c-p-40.1.html



So Basically he is completely in the wrong and nothing he can say in his defense in a court of law can change the legislation, I hope he reads this and decides to just give me my deposit back, and not have to drag him through court, like seriously I don't understand how someone prefers over a 1000$ to 200$

If he still decides he would rather face me in the legal system I'm considering shooting for a public apology by order with my money returned  due to the way I have been treated by this individual. 

And what is even more scary for him is, he cannot counter sue a minor regardless of the fact I asked my roommate to hand him the money on my behalf, as the counter complaint could only legally be directed at me, which It can't.....because I'm not of age. If I wanted to be very mean, I could also technically slap him for the cost of my brace and medical treatment because of his violation of the law has caused complications with my medical care knowingly ( He both understands I have a condition and acknowledges it, and on refusal to return my money was Made aware again about such medical circumstances and that I needed the money which I am rightfully entitled to back) and he could also face child abuse charges at this point if I am not mistaken.


I seriously Just want my deposit back and to drop everything, but if it comes down to this, then it comes down to this, Maybe after he will learn to treat people he is dealing with better and not violate such things, more especially to a minor. (I am technically emancipated, but according to law I am still protected as a minor in a court of law due to my extenuating circumstances)

Bleh regurgitating all this legal gafooey is long and boring.....

Also if he needed the tank moved that bad and would actually keep communication like he is supposed to, I was not opposed to still taking the tank and moving it for him on the fact he agreed that I would not be able to pay him right away and could only do so in chunks after recovering from the cost of the brace,(He was told I could not take the tank and had to back out because I could not afford it right now) I was never opposed to such an agreement, as I did actually want the tank and was willing to work with him....but he decided to be an XXX about it.

His loss I guess eh?